Ever since I wrote this post, Prophetic Word for 2008, the majority of the search phrases for my blog are about prophetic words. Apparently there are a lot of people looking for a prophetic word, which means there are a lot of people vulnerable to everything that claims to be prophecy.
At any given point in time, each of us, as believers, can take a look at the spiritual landscape and share from our perspective what we see. We can share the real impressions in our heart about what God’s Spirit is doing in our lives, in the church, and in the world today. In fact, when we do that, we find greater revelation in the sharing of vision with one another.
Yesterday’s post was a bit of an experiment. It was a reaction to this post from the Elijah List (ht Barb) where Bill shares what he sees. The difference is that Bill packaged his sharing very differently than I did.
(None of this is intended to disrespect Bill. I believe that he has made a contribution to the body of Christ. In his circumstances, he is expected to share what he sees as prophecy.)
What happens when I take what I see and present it as the Word of the Lord?
I have a prophetic background and know the lingo. I could have put a prophetic spin on what I shared, giving it more weight, adding some sparkly, impressive phrases that make it seem more supernatural and god-inspired. I could have thrown in some typology and predictive references to the timing of God. I could have presented my thoughts in a way that seemed seriously impressive and authoritative. And finally, I could have signed off as Bishop Grace.
Should I have done that? Why or why not?
I am thinking about prophecy and wondering if it is about more than the presentation. I believe there is a certain degree of revelation involved and that some of our thoughts carry a greater degree of spirit-inspired revelation than others. How do we determine when those thoughts should be presented as the Word of the Lord?
kingdom grace 
This is a very interesting question and as usual you are provoking our thoughts.
May I turn this in a somewhat different direction in my answer? I wonder whether, in answer to your question, if it should ever be “presented” as the Word of the Lord? It seems to me that the one speaking/writing would be rather presumptious to suggest what they have to say is a Word from the Lord in an authoritative manner. I wonder whether it is the hearers who, in communion with the Holy Spirit are the ones to determine whether it is a Word of the Lord?
It would never even occur to me to present anything I had to say as a Word of the Lord since I think it is the work of the Holy Spirit in the hearer/reader that makes it a Word of the Lord in that person’s life and in the conversation among those who hear/read it.
One of the favourite things I have learned from ‘prophetic’ types is Graham Cooke’s saying that the way in which a word is delivered is as important as what is said… You could have dressed your post up in ‘prophetic’ language, but it would have instantly become relevant only to a few people in a very narrow segment of the body of Christ. What you have written is instead acceptable and accessible to many more people…
The Protestant discipline is that it is up to the hearer to discern what is or is not truth/revelation/God – the more humbly you present your thoughts, the easier it is for people to put down their preconceptions and listen…
Good posts Grace! Keep on keeping on
Grace,
With much too much experience in Bill Hamon’s extended world of prophets, I’d say it’s much easier to hear the Lord’s voice speaking through your writing – than it is through the bombast of the Bill and Cindy’s of the world. What I would love these folk to do is publish percentages on their prophesies.
“Well, yes, last year I did prophesy 350 times, and my average is about 10%.”
I’d be shocked if it’s even that high with these self-promoting “mouth-pieces of God”.
Cynical and jaded. You bet.
But I’m truly sick and tired of the clowns who masquerade as prophets/profits to the Body of Christ with their well worn phrases and flourishes of the tongue.
The prophetic voice is being restored and, dare I say, you are one of those voices, Grace.
Most Honorable Bishop Grace :-),
Sometimes your posts are almost scary to me because I could have written the exact same thing and it all would still be true. I, too, know the prophetic “lingo” and it makes me feel a little ill to think about the ways I used to walk in (but also very grateful for the forgiveness of Christ!).
All I know at this point is that I’m so weary of the sensationalism of every “prophetic” word that comes forth from the “major” players in this field. I do not doubt the sincerity of most of their hearts, I really do not, but I sure don’t like the “packaging” of what they either hear or think they hear. I have no answer to your question other than the fact that I don’t see the need for people to tack on the “thus saith the Lord” type wording to what they think they are hearing. I really find it all so sad. It used to really bother me, but now it’s just plain sad as it really reflects the condition of much of the body of Christ.
I’m so glad you tackle these topics with such grace.
Grace,
Thank you for your extraordiarily insightful observations and wisdom in this area.
One of Bill’s comments had me rolling…
I immediately thought of GratefulDead’s song Estimated Prophet!
Anyway…
A young lady, whom my wife and I relate to as though she is a daughter, who is a participant with us in the same body of Believers, informed us after our gathering Sunday of a dream she had that was particularly directed to me.
It was couched in the motif of my recent ex-profession (pig farming) and in view of I Kings 17 (Elijah and the widow of Zerephath) and had to do with a sow who never ceased from farrowing (giving birth) piglets. After the dream she woke up thinking it was probably the result of some bad bacon or something, went back to sleep and then dreamed that God was directing her to tell me about the dream. So she did. To just the two of us. I asked her why she didn’t tell about it to the whole assembly earlier that day? She said that God directed her to tell me, and that’s what she did.
It isn’t hard to make the connections in the dream. Our “daughter” is notorious for having “prophetic” dreams. Her batting average is probably over 500. I don’t have a heritage in “the prophetic”. Heck, I don’t even have “heritage” in the charismatic.
We, wife and I, are transitioning to another occupation and work is slow right now. I’ve been worried somewhat about the lack of income and get antsy when I feel like I’m sitting around twiddling my thumbs.
The next day we received a call from a friend from our old church. They need six doors hung, a sink faucet replaced and a thing or two more done. (Oh, our new occupation is “handyman services”.)
Yesterday afternoon we found some cash in an envelop with a note on our kitchen counter. (Shushhh, don’t spread the word around, but we don’t lock the front door…)
I asked Alison, “What is this for and why did they do it?”
She flicked me on the head saying, “Oh ye of little faith. You’ve had two confirmations from the Lord of “daughter’s” dream.”
I guess I’m saying all of that to say–I’m convinced that the Lord speaks to us through the members of His Body, and that, most especially, is done simply through the relationships we have one with another.
Tom
amen to what Tom said!
Amen and amen.
I’m so glad you didn’t dress up your words with “prophetic” mumbo-jumbo. Hearing “Thus sayeth the Lord…” always makes me nervous (and more than a bit skeptical). I’m grateful my exposure to the prophetic has come mostly in the context of the Vineyard, where people at least quote (and for the most part honor) Wimber’s approach of “dialing it down.” In other words, if God is speaking, you’ll know it, and I don’t need to dress it up with bombast or KJV language. I agree with Tom that God does speak most often through people we have relationship with.
I’ll expose my ignorance here for a minute and ask what seems to me to be an obvious question.
Why is prophesy so important? I really don’t see that it’s all that necessary in large gatherings. I know that God speaks to me and how S/He does so. I become quite suspicious of people attempting to manipulate me and/or others by telling me that God told them such-and-such because most/all of the time that’s exactly what it is … an attempt to manipulate, using God as a bludgeon.
I need to clarify …
I think that’s why I appreciated Grace’s “prophesy” as opposed to Bill’s “prophesy.”
Grace allowed me to hear God and Bill attempted to ram God down my throat.
Either way, though, I’m still not certain that it’s all worth getting that worked up about. Which is probably the New Englander individualist in me speaking out ;) …
Your Grace, Grace (very cumbersome, indeed!), the Abbess cracked a wee smile ;)
Sonja, I know where you’re coming from, but I see it like this. God is allowed to speak to us in any and all ways — because s/he’s, well, God. I believe that sometimes others are given a word for us for a number of reasons:
1.) we are not listening well for that word and need to hear it with our ears in the flesh;
2.) we need to understand that sometimes pain in the Body of Christ is referred, just as pain in our physical body is — I have a headache, but the problem is in my stomach. If I eat, my headache goes away. You get my drift, I’m sure;
3.) it is a way of provision that fosters intimacy (of course, it only does this in situations like Tom’s or other relationships;
4.) it is an act of encouragment.
That said, I am largely weary of “stage” prophecy and tend to lean toward the “yada” type. 8) Otherwise, it’s too easy to read between the lines and spin projections way out of control.
…Sonja, you were clarifying while I was composing 8)
I spent an evening considering some of these issues last fall and then blogged it. The short version for me is that we must wear authority lightly and allow God to confirm his word. It is the process of discernment that brings maturity and wisdom more than the message itself. The long version..
http://nextreformation.com/?p=1608
Bill Hamon is speaking out of his ass…
There. Said it. Somebody had to. Don’t be overly defensive about such statements. Those ‘super-prophetic’ types need to be ‘seen’ for what they are: pompous whitewashed tombs dreaming up visions of their own & speaking words of no spiritual worth.
“Clunk.” Hear that? Those ‘words’ just fell to the ground.
Interesting to note Shultz places this caveat right before Hamon’s commentary:
One final note: On words such as this one, there are always many who will agree and some who will disagree with the word. We don’t publish this to seek input from our readers as to if you feel it’s correct or not. We post it so that each person or “Saint” will individually evaluate for themselves this word, pray into it, and hopefully be encouraged and motivated by it.
Hamon does not ‘speak’ for the Church. He is not God’s spokesperson for the motley group of saints that make up a very diverse body of believers. How silly. Such mumbo-jumbo pseudo-spiritual blather is reminiscent of John MacArthur’s critique of the emergent dynamic: why would anyone considered ’emerging’ view John MacArthur authoritative about anything emergent?
Hamon is definitely entitled to his opinion, but he has no authority to declare a prophetic word for the Church Universal according to his theological definitions & built-in bias.
I think he can rally a loyal fan base that already agrees with his positions & comments, but he will not be influencing anyone or anything emergent. He will state prophetic-rhetoric & preach to a choir that agrees with him & he will be dismissed by those unimpressed with his ‘prophetic correctness’ however some wish to couch it.
And yes, readers should just come out & say that it is spiritual B.S. Shultz should not be afraid of having strong & even angry retorts to the likes of such prophetic pronouncements. Heck, rebukes like that are just as ‘prophetic’ as any others posted by him!
They have got to get over themselves, pure & simple. Step off the high horse of Apocalyptic “sayethness” & take a long look in the mirror. Nope. You are not the channel of Holy Spirit insight you make yourself out to be. Their power & influence extends only as far as those that get all twitterpated over such pronouncements allow. Sheesh. What a scam. And a total embarrassment to those that want an authentic prophetic voice spoken directly to a local situation. My God, what a bunch of hooey…
Grace, I suspected… the words were so similar, but packaged so differently. I do think this is very important. How does Jesus come? With fanfare? Never. A lot of post-charasmatics (and ‘charismatic’ Anglicans for that matter) understand this difference and reject the theatrics.
I think the prophetic movement in America is quite immature. There is a lot of empire, and that makes for a lot of mixture. People seem to take a lot of offense at all the immaturity, but who really cares? God is aware, and He is big enough to transform and purify. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be accountability. That’s definitely part of the problem. Another problem is that so many Christians have abdicated their responsibility to hear from God themselves, and put these people on pedestals, and facilitate ’empire’. Everyone is complicit – not just those on the stage.
My next question is: at what point does something move from pure observation to supernatural revelation? A lot of what is called ‘prophecy’ does not really require supernatural revelation at all.
I suppose there is revelation that coincides with observation (the Lord gives further insight into things we are observing with our natural capacities). And then there is future prediction that describe what God is about to do. Ultimately though, we all have to take personal responsibility to learn to hear God’s voice for ourselves. How can we have a relationship with someone we cannot hear? How do we follow someone we cannot converse with? IMHO, true prophets teach others to hear God.
Good warning to be leary of false prophecy.
Lots of great insight here.
Lots of people are “hearing” and “sensing” what Bill prophesied about so grandly and what you have written about in that bloggish conversation tone of yours that we have come to be familiar with and love. Others have been writing and blogging and discussing these things for years.
I see it as more of a difference in dialect. Hamon runs in the pentecostal/charismatic camp. Some of us are familiar with that language. We used to speak it and hear it almost daily.
In our post-charismatic journey we have shed that dialect. We have new words, like missional, emerging, relevant, post-modern, uncertainty, mystery, etc…it’s a new language.
I have no issue with what or how Hamon said. Or with you. Both of you guys nailed it from my perspective. Just different dialects.
Having said that, the interesting thing to note, as a side thought, is that in the “Saints movement” as Hamon calls it, this suggests that platform ministries like his and Cindy Jacobs need to reevaluate how they conduct themselves publicly. The very thing he is prophesying about is undermined when only ministry superstars are the only voices heard and given a mic on the platform.
I am waiting for the day when Elijah List, which I can no longer read, begins to post “words” from voices who are unknown, obscure, unpublished and unaccomplished. Where are the everyday janes and joes? How come we don’t hear from them?
Because in the religion business you gotta be somebody to be heard and seen, a mover and a shaker, a successful numbers-getter.
I would not call it an apostolic reformation. I call it a revolution of honest average people, the ordinary guy who drives a bus or the lady who waitresses at the diner, who are becoming the voice and presence of Jesus in this next great move of God. And you can be sure, they won’t have superstar “words” packaged up in overpriced books or strutted out at yet another conference. They will be our most anonymous saints.
Yes, I do believe a saints movement is a foot. Look for “my words” about this in the upcoming edition of Off the Map’s IdeaLab…
ok, can somebody help me off my soapbox? I seemed to have got stuck up here…!
I wondered what you were doing yesterday. Now it makes sense. I have been reading quite a bit the past few days. One thought is about appropriate boundaries that people should have in place. In the charasmatic movement we lowered these boundaries especially to those that were seen to have a prophetic gift. This was not right. It is right to know when to tell someone that what they have just said has crossed over into your own boundaries of what is acceptable. You are responsible to hear a word and then discern whether it was right or not. But while they said that this was in place, you were never allowed to question this ‘word’ in a public meeting or if it was from one of our own ‘leadership.’ Thus you put up with these boundaries being breeched often. I am still coming to the realization that there is nothing wrong with me to question or even discount a ‘prophet’s’ word. But raised like I was I could still not say what Bill Kinnon did or Joseph Ostrander did. Maybe someday I will be able to go there with the same force.
I agree with Traveller that it lies with the beholder to receive a revelation as truth.
Any word or opinion should be delivered with humility. However, as a beholder, we should avoid being offended with the packaging or we risk missing what the Lord has for us.
I recieved as truth your insight into what you see Grace because it lined up with what I see too. It sat right in my spirit.
I really like Pam’s comment. She brings up a great point about dialect. But I wonder if dialect is benign. The interesting thing about studying other languages is that it often gives insights into the culture’s mindsets and value systems.
I think the language (like methodology) we use inherently reinforces certain values or mindsets. If those values reflect kingdom values, then that’s good. But if the language we use reflects opposing values, or mindsets that don’t align with God’s ways, then we end up with mixture. We hear from God, but when we go to deliver the word, it gets packaged in certain language, mixed with our own mindsets and value systems (which may or may not be conformed to Christ’s image). And the language in itself sends a certain message to the hearer about what is important. Or at least, it frames the message in a certain way that may or may not reflect kingdom values.
Going back and reading Bill’s word, there is an American flavor to it. “Subdue,” “dominion,” “enforce” – these all remind me a little of ‘manifest destiny.’ (Which is a mindset that I think we need to repent of, and this is related to the embracing of empire building in our culture – whether it be in business, politics or in the church). These are all biblical terms, but they have been horribly misused, so I think people are cautious when they hear them.
Again, like I mentioned on Former Leader’s original post, I think we do well to humbly hear from prophetic voices all across the globe, rather than just the voices in the American church.
Sonja- if you moved in the prophetic you know the answer to your question HEHE!
Your Holiness Grace, Good post! I have had much exposure to the prophetic, and some was good and some was NOT!!! I think we need to be very careful when proclaiming we are speaking for the Lord. In the old testament a false prophet was killed. Maybe “prophets” would be more selective in saying “thus says the Lord” if that was still the case.
I believe that All the gifts are for today, prophecy being one, but some of the sweetest words I’ve recieved from God was from a person who stubbled over every word, and didn’t add “thus says the Lord”
Ok, funny story. And it is true. A man stood up in church and bellowed, “Thus says the Lord, just as my servent Abraham led my people out of Egypt, so I will lead you out of this”. He sat down, and everyone was looking at each other a little confused. He then stood up and said “thus says the Lord, I was wrong, it was Moses”. Apparently God has a poor memory. LOL
I love it when the comments are better than the actual post! :)
traveller,
We used to teach that a prophetic revelation should always be given as the word of the lord. I wouldn’t do that today. I believe it puts the hearer in an awkward position and takes away their freedom to discern and possibly disagree.
andy,
Good point. Humility makes anything we share, prophetic or not, more accessible to those who hear us.
Bill,
We will have to compare notes sometime. I think this group became accustomed to a degree of celebrity in certain circles. Out of that, I believe that their perception of their authority and responsibility in the body became inflated. However, I also believe that they sincerely believe in what they are doing and don’t have the perspective to see the self-promoting nature of it all.
tracy,
I think what is just as sad as ministry that is packaged in sensationalism is the large number of believers who pursue ministers because of celebrity and sensationalism. It is what they want and seek after.
Tom,
Thanks for sharing your story. I loved your conclusion. That’s really the whole point. God does speak to us through one another. Sometimes it is simple and other times profound, but it is part of being members one of another.
Cindy,
Waving hi as you breeze through!
Maria,
I heard before of the Vineyard style. I agree that the word should be able to stand on its own without attaching “thus sayeth” to it and that it is up to the hearer to determine the validity of the word.
Sonja,
The prophetic was our “baby” at the CLB. In spite of the fact that there is so much that we would change, we haven’t lost our passion for the necessity of God’s voice in the lives of individuals and in the life of the community.
I believe a small group setting is a much better place to share personal prophetic thoughts with one another because it is more relational.
In a large group, I believe the best expression of the prophetic is an open situation where every believer is encouraged to share a glimpse of what they see. Like a jigsaw puzzle, it is in the many pieces coming together that a picture is formed (or perhaps like a quilt).
In many ways, blogging is also a type of “corporate word.” As you scan through many blogs, you develop a sense of what God is saying to the body at the moment.
Great damage has been done with packaged and manipulative prophecy. In spite of that, I hope the prophetic will continue to grow as individuals learn to hear from God and as the body of Christ learns the power of sharing God’s word with one another in a more organic way.
Peggy,
There should be a one-anothering aspect to prophecy. As you said, it should result in encouragement. Because the focus has been on impressing others, I believe we’ve missed out on the encouraging aspect of prophecy.
I hope you are feeling better soon.
Len,
Thank you for the link. So many good points that are applicable to this discussion –
-seeing through a glass darkly
-pronouncements that shut down conversation
-the need for many voices
-truth resides and is discerned in community
-the need for a larger context than our immediate sphere
-the mistaken belief that charisma equals authority
Good thoughts. I encourage others to read your post.
Joseph,
Are you saying you didn’t like it? ;)
I agree that Hamon’s authority and influence is limited to a specific sphere.
Shoot, I’m out of time. I’ll be back later.
grace:
Ha-ha…being a bit facetious? ;)
I do believe those that give any ‘weight’ to the likes of Hamon must get over their fascination with the carnival atmosphere of the super-prophetic before they can actually ‘hear’ God clearer…
Just my own relatively objective opinion… :)
Anybody with half-a-mind will quickly ‘discern’ that no one today can speak the mind of God for the Church. We are too disparate a body. If you begin to narrow down just what the percentage of saints today actually listen to, or even know who Bill Hamon is, the idea that he is speaking the mind of God to the Church becomes ludicrous.
Then add up all the prophetic words being published in the Elijah List. Just that one repository of so-called prophetic revelation today. How many people actually read it? How many of those people can make some practical application in their own lives+circumstances after wading through all the chaff?
In no time at all any sane individual will quickly realize it is not how the New Testament prophetic gifting works. Why even consider such high-visibility “sayethness” worth the air expelled to pronounce it? And some people get all testy when you are willing to ‘speak out’ against the celebrity prophet types they are so enamored with.
After being involved in the prophetic movement one can determine all those ‘words’ cannot possibly be true. And it is not my skepticism talking here either. It is simply common frikin’ sense! And the grander in scope the word, the less weight it could possibly carry. I happen to ‘know’ first hand what a good percentage of acceptable accuracy is on the small stage let alone the global one. Heck, read the bible for crying out loud! Once you big-stage prophet types get that right in interpretation+application look me up for any clarifying prophetic pronouncements! Until then, keep your visions, dreams & words to yourself. You are not making any grand impact for the kingdom today. Your stature does not impress God or The Church. Your giftedness not the greatest thing since Charlton Heston…
Hamon’s theological ‘bent’ already has tainted the words he pronounces. God would speak to everyone if He wanted to speak to the ‘churches’, not just the Manifest Sons of Destiny; Dominion Theology; Latter Rain; New Apostolic types that plan on being seated at Jesus’ side after the Rapture. How can such an idea gain such momentum? No wonder the non-charismatic saints think we are wacko! And those are our brethren. What does the world think? It is not ‘the word of the Lord’ they recognize, that’s for sure… :(
A small disclaimer needs to be made by me here…
Mr. Bill Hamon could be a nice guy. Maybe we have some interests in common like golf, or fine wine, or fishing, or good Jamaican Jerk BBQ…
Could be we might get along just fine. Could be we might forge a friendship after adequate investment from the both of us. Could be he might even sense something about my spiritual condition & offer his, well, ‘impression’, or suggestion or whatever…
And that is what is at discussion here: the “close-enough-to-know” type of prophetic gifting, not the shotgun prophetic pronouncements from a super-spiritual dais to the undiscerning below…
It’s that artificially inflated attention given to what I believe is not a ‘graven image’ God prohibited, by an ‘oral idol’ of man’s own making nonetheless that is just as misrepresentative …
I would have more respect for the high-visibility prophetic types that actually took ownership of their ‘words’. You know, if I actually was given a ‘word from the Lord’ I would consider it precious & holy. And if for some peculiar reason that ‘word’ did not come to pass, I would be on my knees & fasting for an explanation from God. And I would then need to confess it was not confirmed by God Himself. I would be less inclined to speak out the next time. Or the next, or even the next…
So if Mr. Hamon can go back to all the ‘words’ of his that have been recorded & make a painful evaluation of their accuracy without burdening the rest of us saints to do the same, we just might have a much more humble group of prophets making fewer repetitious pronouncements of no earthly good.
You know, Mr. Hamon puts on his pants one leg at a time like all the rest of us. He does not have the ability to call fire down from heaven to consume his detractors. He may secretly hope for such an anointment from God, but I doubt God is willing to empower any of his children with such ability attributed to Zeus & Thor…
Imagine the fun we all could have! I wonder who would be the last Christian standing… :)
Anyway, I don’t want you guys to think I consider Mr. Hamon evil or mentally unstable or having inexplicable hallucinations. I simply believe he is caught up in his own press. Like the Emperor’s New Clothes. He has been told he speaks the words of the Lord. And so he keeps it up because he is being enabled. And the circle of super-prophets all do the same thing. Pat each other on the back. Give high-fives. Say the prescribed “Amens!” & “Hallelujahs!” in response to each utterance. And nobody else can get a sober word in edgewise… ;)
Joseph,
I love it, Bro.!! Mind your blood pressure…I don’t want to have to come out to sunny CA. and have to lay my (ineffectual) healing hands on ya, now.
Those who have suffered much can most passionately.
Tom
(dang…wish we could edit after submitting…)
Meant to say;
Those who have suffered much can speak the most passionately.
T
Tom:
Yeah…I’m sure there are a few people that are desirous to give me a ‘hand laid on’!… :)
The celebrity status along with the commonly repeated ‘charismatic urban legends’ circulated to impress the saints lost their luster quickly once I extricated myself from the hype-and-hoopla. My normal ‘rational-but-willing-to-believe’ reputation was taken advantage of one-too-many times. Enough was enough. I opted out. I wanted the giftings to be genuine. I wanted a peek into the supernatural. I desired a conduit of Holy Spirit ‘umph’ that revealed the glory of the Lord. All I got was more & more disillusioned. I began to doubt I could ‘hear’ what the Holy Spirit was saying. I could not get to the place where His Spirit & my spirit we distinct. I ‘heard’ the Lord as a conversation in my own head using my own voice. And then I adapted to the mannerisms & voice inflections of those I was being influenced by…
Anyway, I can get ‘fired up’ about the manner which I saw the abuse. Not malicious, but simply naive. Manipulated. Overly inflated. Ego trips. It was not how the church should be expressed. Not how the gifts were meant to be a blessing. It just became a sham. One great big show of little or no substance. Maybe the desire was sincere. But the application & the way it was ‘manhandled’ quickly stank of flesh.
So, yes, I can write out my frustrations in such a way as to risk a bout of laying-on-of-hands to get that attitude exorcised! :)
Actually – if you’re ever down in Santa Rosa Beach Florida (close to Panama City)- stop by Christian International on a Friday night – and go to one of the propehtic teams and have them prophecy over you. You might be surprised. Some of the words we’ve received over the years have been very accurate. It’s like anything else though – if the Lord doesn’t speak to you through it – just shelf it – or can it.
I think this word by Hamon is accurate – I love his book “the Day of the Saints”. Problem is – he’s as old school as they get — authoritarian — hierarchical — tons of structure — lots of titles (Bishop Grace) and this move of God doesn’t look anything like he thinks it’s suppose to.
So many are calling this a “revolution” – but they don’t realize the meaning of the word. “Revolution” means the government (or church government in this case) gets overthrown.
Bill couldn’t let his mind go there for a second – he’s perched right on top of Babylon. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t understand prophecy, he’s really quite awesome to watch – if you can sort out all of the religious garb and structure the words are cloaked in….
I loved the story from John Eckhardt – they were testing out Hamon and personal prophecy to see if it was really real. He was suppose to prophecy over their leaders – but they slipped a used car salesman in on him to see what he would say. After a while he said – “I don’t see anything but bent crank shafts and broken pistons”. They determined he was the real deal after that – and chartered a plane from Chicago down to Florida to get prophetic training for all their leaders.
One last thing….
“Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.” (1Co 14:29-32 NIV)
Doesn’t anybody believe in this scripture literally? It absolutely fixes most of the crap you all are talking about…..
Get rid of the status symbols and platforms – and teach the common saint how to prophecy – then follow this passage ….. Then when someone gets carried away the person next to them goes “YUCK…..”
Jerry:
I’m sure Mr. Hamon is an interesting bloke. Yet, he’s not going to influence my perception any even if I did venture out to ‘see him in action’…
I do not consider him influential or important or critical to God’s workings upon the earth today. Mr. Hamon will not unveil the hidden mysteries of God or bring sudden clarity out of the chaos & confusion that plagues the prophetic camps already…
He is simply adding to the stigma of super-prophetic pompousness that has a hollow ring to it & leaves a strange metallic taste in one’s mouth…
Nope. Will not let any individual or group ever ‘prophesy over me’. I have enough of the gifting to know how it is not to be used. Don’t need such nonsense. If someone has the anointment & truly is prophetic, they would already know this. They would then invite me out for some fine micro brews or California wine & we could talk theology & spirituality & discipleship, & after a couple good rounds of libations have some good eats. Invest a bit in relationship. Hell, pick up the tab! Tell me of what they sense the Holy Spirit is impressing upon them about me, have a good laugh when I tell them it’s all a bunch of crap or this may be applicable. Exchange email addresses & make another appointment to do it again in a few months…
I do not ‘go’ to any prophetic anything. Do not plan to make a Hajj to Florida, Toronto or points between. Do not go to any City Takers events or End Times teachers or Healing Crusades or the likes. And never, ever, ever go to anything billed as prophetic…
Now I might be impressed by a prophet knocking on my door & telling me they’re from Florida & God told them to come out & talk to me…
But then it would only be after I offered some fine libations & I stoked up the barbie for queing. [sidenote: I do not trust any Christian or prophet type that does not drink]
Then see paragraph 4 above…
You see, it was pointed out by you this very simple litmus test I use: Some of the words we’ve received over the years have been very accurate.
Yeah. Right. “Some of the words”…exactly.
It is not going to do anybody any good having to wade through all the chaff to find a bit of wheat. It is the law of diminishing returns. And it is not about practicing more or trial & error or proper training either. It is not part of the gifting or how it is to be exercised. It, (the gift), simply is…
You have a relationship. You have some insight & you share it out of genuine concern for the individual. It is called, get this, “strengthening, encouraging & comforting…”
No other ‘stuff’ needs to be added. No posturing. No catchy phraseology. No stattaco cadence. No required terms or words that grace originally spelled out in her initial topic…
Get off the high prophetic horse. Come down to earth. Leave all badges & honors & titles at the door. Come on in & let’s eat, drink, fellowship & chat. Everything else is simply wood, hay, stubble…
Jerry,
Exactly (to your last post).
I Cor. 14:29-32 should be the “fix” to a lot of the merde…and of couse it will help to apply the other “fixes”–“Get rid of the status symbols and platforms – and teach the common saint how to prophecy – then follow this passage ….. Then when someone gets carried away the person next to them goes “YUCK…..”
A healthy dose of YUCKIN will go a long way when the merde is gettin’ deep.
Tom
My involvement in the prophetic stuff (1996-1999) was positive in this regard: I experienced how it is not to be exploited…
I have set my bullshit meter to the most sensitive setting. It has to be 99.99% pure before it even passes the more careful scrutiny testing phase…
I am not missing out on anything by ignoring Mr. Hamon’s pronouncements. Do not have any interest in his accuracy rating, his references or accolades from others. Wouldn’t read his books if they were given to me. We have differing theological perspectives. Far different experiences. And frankly, his claims or the claims of others amount to little if anything to the vast majority of believers around the world today.
Somebody somewhere wrongly concluded he had something more special than any other Christian. Something more useful or important or necessary than any other person in The Body. More timely, more strategic, or more revelatory…
Never trust anyone that sells books or has seminars charging a fee or expects an offering simply for showing up & performing their giftedness upon the stage…
Don’t trust anyone that goes on TV to ‘speak the word of the Lord’ or receives the praises of men. And speaking for the entire Church or claiming that they have God’s understanding for the corporate body the silliest notion ever conceived by a New Testament saint…
Where’s the accountability? Humility? Sensitivity? Graciousness? :(
I am very curious to hear from those that were immersed in the prophetic during the same time I was & what they concluded. I knew of some that were well known then that simply faded away or had a change of heart. I would like to hear their stories. I have no interest in the Hamon’s of the modern prophetic movement. They sound a lot like the politicians that frequent the airwaves with promises of something better or warnings of impending doom. At least with those types I can cast my vote according to my BS meter readings… :)
I have to admit – I really admired Pope John Paul too. I never was Catholic, but the guy really fascinated me. He was an awesome man in a really lousy system.
I never was immersed in the prophetic – and I do share your concerns about platform ministry and what I call the “entertainment factor” that comes with platform ministry.
I don’t go out of my way to get a strong dose of hardly anyone except maybe Wolfgang Simson. That too will pass in a few weeks or months. I was on a Graham Cooke kick a couple of years ago.
Pr 24:13 Eat honey, my son, for it is good…
Pr 25:16 If you find honey, eat just enough—too much of it, and you will vomit.
Yes, I agree there are indeed great men & women of God in every church tradition/expression today. Has always been that way. Regardless of theological differences or how they live out their faith+practice…
The manner which the prophetic movement became the newest darling in The Body can be traced back to a genuine desire for the Spirit of God to be more expressive in & through the saints. But what is being passed off as prophetic ministry is an over-inflated caricature of what the gifts are intended for…
You know, back in my prophetic days, we were all encouraged to ‘write out the words’ given to us. Some here will remember the cute little cassette tapes that were used & handed out after the word(s) were delivered. I dutifully wrote out each & every word given to me that was recorded this way. And after reading them I discovered that the practical application was not so apparent as it was made out to be…
I threw them out years ago. Along with all books pertaining to the prophetic & all training manuals I had acquired. I also repented of each & every ‘word’ I ever gave. And I made a decision not to ever be part of something like that again.
You mention Graham Cooke. I had a tape of his. He sounded very balanced if that is even a proper spiritual quality or principle. Interestingly enough, he is part of Future Training Institute in Vacaville. I was living in Benicia, California at the time of my prophetic involvement. Was familiar with Vacaville Christian Life Centre at that time. The Vallejo, Benicia, American Canyon, Napa, Fairfield areas a hotbed of prophetic activity back then. And I suppose it still is. Heck, there are schools & extensive training centers & everything that you could imagine associated with prophetic this or that. It was going to catalyze the biggest revival in the San Francisco Bay area! It was scheduled to happen about the 3rd year after the millennium. Something to do with Jesus being in the grave 3 days & then resurrected. Anyway, if you travel through those areas today you will not be aware such a spiritual rejuvenation ever happened. No dramatic social upheaval associated with the prophetic types that were calling it forth. No destiny realized; no importance or recognition given to those that wanted to be on the cutting edge of supersaintdom…
From what the prophets said you would have thought that the second coming was going to be single handedly quickened by the relatively unknown saints that were willing to step outside the box in those areas. But it was not to be. I don’t think it was ever God’s intention in the first place. So something was amiss. Something misread or misunderstood or simply mistaken…
sarah,
Yes, I wanted to make the point that we are both sharing what we see. However, Bill’s context is an American church perspective with an emphasis on platform ministry. Those who chase after this are complicit in a codependent way.
I don’t believe that we have the capacity to distinguish with complete accuracy between our own impressions and true, direct revelation. It’s the whole broken-vessel, through-a-glass-darkly reality that we live in.
That doesn’t necessarily mean that we shouldn’t share our revelations, however it would suggest that we do so with proper humility.
I loved what you said about prophets teaching others to hear from God. That’s what really matters.
The emphasis on dominion and enforcement is a wrong slant in the understanding of the believer’s role in the kingdom under restorationism teaching. It is something I have had to deprogram from while still realizing we have a role to play in God’s kingdom on earth.
Hey Pete!
Pam,
Exactly! And when do we decide we should take these general revelations and dress them up in fancy clothes and parade them around on the prophetic red carpet?
Great point about the dialect. I don’t have as much trouble with the context as I do with the celebrity culture and conference industry that mushrooms around this style of ministry.
I wonder if the saints movement will be a mutiny, or if existing leaders will realize that it is their responsibility to release and empower?
Barb,
It is difficult to nearly impossible to set a boundary with platform ministry. That is one of the reasons that prophetic ministry is more conducive to a small group setting.
Ruth,
Yes, I believe we can learn to discern by God’s Spirit whether a word is truth for us.
Lori,
I used to keep a list in a notebook of really cringe-worthy things that people on our prophetic teams said as prophecy. I’m afraid I tossed it with lots of other stuff, but I kind of wish I still had it. (for teaching purposes of course, LOL)
Tom, Jerry, and Joseph,
There is an aspect of true prophetic ministry that will be nurtured and developed in the church. It is an aspect of Christ’s nature and His nature in us. The fact that prophecy has been mishandled, manipulated, and sometimes mangled doesn’t negate the need for it in the church. There is much deconstruction needed because the sensationalized form of the prophetic has taken center stage. However, I have no doubt that true prophetic ministry will develop in spite of this. Will we recognize it without all the bells and whistles?
Grace,
Will we recognize it?
If history is indicative of us recognizing God – the answer is probably “no”. Mary didn”t recognize the resurrected Jesus, on the road to emmaeus – they didn’t recognize the resurrected Jesus. The Jews didn’t recognize the messiah born in their midst. In fact – a new move of God almost always has one characteristic – and that is – it’s unrecognizable…. The Lord is truly amazing!
One of the big problems with the prophetic movement right now – is they don’t recognize the “one who comes after me” … they are still looking for a king – and the Christ child is always born in a real messy place in a real insignificant manner.
Amen.
I also think Jerry makes a good point;
…Yes, in all the wrong places, on all the wrong stages.
Tom
There is an aspect of true prophetic ministry that will be nurtured and developed in the church. It is an aspect of Christ’s nature and His nature in us. The fact that prophecy has been mishandled, manipulated, and sometimes mangled doesn’t negate the need for it in the church.
grace:
I do have a concern with the perspective or conclusion that the church ‘needs’ prophetic gifting. Or any of the spiritual gifts in operation. I understand them to be a blessing. A strengthening, encouraging, comforting expression inspired by God’s Spirit at work in & through the saints. Privilege? Blessing? Support? But need?
And do we rightly envision just how these gifts were demonstrated in the Corinthian church? No real detail offered. We do have Agabus mentioned as a New Testament prophet type, but he is not pronouncing the church’s new role in fomenting the fall of Rome. :)
I doubt the Corinthian prophecy expressions had much in common with what has been passed of as prophetic ministry today. I think Paul put the grand kibosh on any of the abuses we have experienced in the modern movement. And that is what is missing today. The modern prophetic movement loath to be self-policing. We do not have the authority/leadership position to ‘speak’ correction & bring order out of chaos. What we do have are titled Bishops or Prophets or Apostles of different faith traditions & denominations that do not have recognized authority or jurisdiction over the whole church. We are a divisive bunch. Started out that way. Paul had to strongly address that early tendency also. But alas, what was an early developmental problem has become the current state of affairs for “The Church”.
There is much deconstruction needed because the sensationalized form of the prophetic has taken center stage. However, I have no doubt that true prophetic ministry will develop in spite of this. Will we recognize it without all the bells and whistles?
I happen to believe that ‘true’ prophetic ministry has & continues to be alive & well in pockets of expression throughout the ages. Not the ‘center stage’ type obviously, but at the relational, interactive levels. The bells & whistles abuses we point out does highlight the negative, but then, also serves as a signpost of how not to do it. Prophetic gifting has been part of my experience. Not a daily or weekly or monthly one, but certainly those uncanny events that have divine fingerprints all over them. I don’t think such giftings are intended to be universal in scope or even long-term. Could be a few have a permanent gifting, some have a sporadic one & not everyone everywhere even has a hint of spiritual gifting. It does have to be desired of course. And with it a purity of motivation+intent. A big mistake of the modern movement is dangling the power gifts out in front of immature, wounded saints like a holy carrot. “Hey, you too can be a prophet!” And I witnessed much immature woundings that unfortunately resulted… :(
Well, Grace, I’m thinking the very nature of a revolution usually involves a bit of mutiny to some degree. Question is, how much mutiny are we gonna see in these days of power mongering even among church leaders?
Oh, I’m feelin’ so piratey these days. YAR!
Pam,
YAR flippin right. The revolution is already underway.
formerleader
I am still coming to the realization that there is nothing wrong with me to question or even discount a ‘prophet’s’ word. But raised like I was I could still not say what Bill Kinnon did or Joseph Ostrander did. Maybe someday I will be able to go there with the same force.
I think the religious tradition(s) we have been raised in, or submitted ourselves to, work their way deep down into the foundations of our souls.
If, at some later date, we discover they are poisoning the well of our spirit it usually results in a process that has been categorized as ‘detoxing from church’…
At some point we need to do a serious reevaluation of how we live out our faith. Those of us from the charismatic/Pentecostal churches that have left after experiencing authority abuses (personal as well as observed practices) still have a desire to get over our past. We may be silent critics of our church experiences while some (myself included) can get quite vocal. I find cathartic release in writing out my story, but that does not mean I am better at coping or recovery or whatever. I just happened to find the written expression a valuable tool to help me sort out what happened & why it happened & maybe what I could have done about it at that time had I known better. Maybe my journey & resultant insight will be helpful to others, but most often not.
What is it about the charismatic/prophetic/Pentecostal camps that seem to have more than their fair share of controversial high visibility personality types? Take Bill Hamon. Has quite the interesting past. Same with other so-called super-prophet types. Or the Word-of-Faith camps. It is something that I find disturbing. And I am not talking about some mud-slinging efforts made by the naysayers, but actual verifiable facts from their past. It makes me uneasy to think that God would somehow ‘gift’ these people that seem more wack than your average Christian saint trying to be more godly as they live out a very real faith. What is up with that? Why the higher percentage of the unusual? Why not gift the saints that wish to live a very self-controlled life without any hoopla? With no need to be noticed or titled or made out to be something they are not?
I do not think Mr. Hamon especially qualified to be the example of prophetic giftedness he is made out to be. And he is not holier than the rest of us. He is not God’s untouchable anointed. He is simply a man. Plain & simple. His value does not depend on his prophetic prowess. He does not have some supernatural power shield that critics need to fear. Prophetic giftedness does not automatically qualify one as infallible. Or above rebuke, reproof, correction or simply being ignored. And that is what I choose to do…