Eternal Choices

I listened to Tim Keller’s sermon on hell yesterday (ht Bob Hyatt). I recently heard a sermon on the same passage by Greg Boyd about the topic of eternal torment. Interestingly enough, while their approaches to this passage (Luke 16:19-31) were quite different, I agreed with many of the points made in both sermons.

This morning I was looking through the Scriptures at various passages about hell and eternal life. What really struck me is how conditioned I am to see these passages in terms of afterlife – one decision that results in either eternal fire or eternal life.

What if instead these verses are about our current lives, our daily choices? Maybe it isn’t as much about an afterlife destination, but rather about the realm of existence in which we choose to currently participate. And yes, the realm in which we participate now will likely color our experience in the afterlife.

“…what is unseen is eternal.” – II Corinthians 4:18

It is not a stretch to interpret eternity, the unseen realm, as a reality of our current temporal existence. The Scripture verses about eternal life suggest that as believers we should be living and experiencing eternal life now – not an afterlife destination, but our participation in the realm of the Spirit in our current living.

My definition of hell is the destruction and devastation that sin causes in our lives, the hell we experience as a result of sin. It may be more than this, I don’t know. While I am unsure of the idea of hell as Dante’s Inferno of Eternal Torment, I do agree with Keller’s idea of hell as the destructive fire of sin.

Based on that, I can also see eternal fire or hell as another realm of existence that we choose to participate in or to reject in our current lives. Perhaps we are always making choices about which unseen realm we are engaging with.

These thoughts remind me of the passage in Deuteronomy…

I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life… Deuteronomy 30:19-20

This is what I am thinking about this morning. Your thoughts?

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40 thoughts on “Eternal Choices

  1. The more i study hell the more I recognize that it was as much a present reality as any future reality. It’s easy to find hell on earth. It’s hard to find hell in the afterlife, because we haven’t been there. So lets address the one we have been given.

  2. I always thought of ‘hell’, where Jesus says there “will be” (as opposed to “is”), weeping (sorrow, loneliness, regret, etc.) and gnashing of teeth (anger, frutstration, anguish, etc.) as a place totally absent of God’s general grace. I guess I made this assumption through the Biblical definition of death as being ‘separated’. The first death being the soul separated from the body. The second, the soul separated from God’s grace. Once the soul has lost the option of escaping torment through physical shock, madness, or death, there is nothing left but to endure torment when it experiences the absence of God’s general grace.

    As there is no such place on earth in this age, I see it as something in a future age. Although scripture indicates this place was prepared for Satan and his minions, it appears that there will be humans who will also experience it. Whether humans experience it forever or not seems to have become increasingly questionable in our evolving post-modern/emerging Christian culture. I am beginning to think that ‘eternal damnation’ is increasingly being removed from the tight circle of Christian orthodoxy containing the essentials of our faith.

    Hopefully the threat of ‘eternal damnation’ is also being removed from the spreading of the ‘good news’ to those who are seeking hope. It seems the only times Jesus made reference to such a place was when it was directed toward the religeous folks who supposed they had already escaped it through their self-righteous attitudes.

  3. I like what you said Grace but I can’t really equate your thoughts with our present daily reality where sin often goes unjudged and our hell-on-earth is sometimes caused by the sin of others (who sometimes fall into that unjudged category).

    Whether Hell in the afterlife exists or not is less important IMO than the question of whether eternal justice exists.

  4. I believe sin is anything that separates us from God. For me, that is certainly the definition of hell. It is something that we experience in the here and now.

  5. Well, certainly. However, since Jesus defeated death the person into whom we are shaping ourselves either working against God or in submission to the grace of God is continuous in some sense with the person we will be. The question is not what God is or what God will do. God is love. But his love is a consuming fire. How will we stand in that fire? Will we experience it as warmth and comfort or as burning torment?

  6. I’d like to add a little something to the twist here:

    Gen 4:13-14 Cain said to the LORD, “My punishment is more than I can bear. Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

    2Th 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

    1Th 4:17-18 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord for ever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.

    Cain was HIDDEN FROM the Lord’s presence. Eternal punishment is being SHUT OUT from the Lord’s presence. Eternal life is BEING WITH the LORD. If you don’t want HIM – HE won’t force you. It really is all about HIM – as CAIN found out.

  7. Isn’t justice quite a modern invention and its been grafted into Christian faith as an part of God’s character.Can God’s desire for ‘justice’ overcome His desire for reconciliation and the ultimate ‘sacrifice’ of Christ. Either Jesus is the Saviour of the ‘world’ or only the believing percentage of it throughout history i.e. 50% at most.If so He is only the potential Saviour of the World. Thought I would throw in these few thoughts just to disturb the hell talk.

  8. There is no place on earth where God’s common grace is not at work, even in the most dire of circumstances, and even in the realm of the most despicable of people. If ‘hell on earth’ were merely the death of separation from a relationship with God, many on earth will gladly accept thier ‘hell’ as they lavish in their self-indulgences. Bob is right … there always has been and will be severe injustices in this age. Only by believing in the atoning work of the blood of Jesus can one be redeemed from the sentence of the second death. My only reservation about traditional Western doctrine concerning this is the uncertainty of degrees of punishment or the certainty of ‘eternal punishment’. But of this I am certain, God is just, and He will make sure all scales are balanced in accordance with His kindness, mercy and justice.

    “But let him who boats boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight,” declares the Lord. -Jer 9:24

    Justice being a part of God’s character is very well established in the text of His narrative. We cannot simply eliminate it because it doesn’t seem to make total sense to us. Our sense of ‘fairness’ is very limited, and severely tainted by those limitations. I am satisfied to let God be God, and accept the fact that without mystery, there is no faith.

  9. Well said, Jonathan and Catherine. By only focusing on the afterlife, we miss the point of both hell and eternal life. Salvation as an insurance policy putting our spiritual affairs in order is such a shallow expression of all that God intended for us.

    Alienation from God is tragic now. Ken, it is sadly ironic that those who believe they are relishing self-indulgence or immorality are deceived and blind to the hell they live in attempting to find their love and identity apart from God.

    As Scott mentioned, sin torments us in our ability to experience God’s love and twists our understanding of the God who loves us. Being in His light exposes us, and the tendency is then to hide. No Jerry, He won’t force us, but the Spirit will continually attempt to overcome the fear and shame of our alienation.

    Bob, while eternal justice isn’t fully realized, I believe that it is established and that God is in the process of setting things right. In this age of decay, all evil is not yet fully banished. However, I would not go so far as to say that sin goes unjudged. It is never free of destruction.

    Charlie, our ideas of damnation and punishment might be modern inventions, but as Ken said, justice is essential to the nature of God’s love. It is His intention to restore, to redeem, and to reconcile. He is the one Who will return things to the way they were intended to be. And He is the only one Who can judge perfectly and make the ultimate call regarding good and evil.

  10. Grace, I’m sorry but I guess I’m not totally connecting with your thoughts here. I’m not saying I disagree, it’s just a bit too abstract for me. “…those who believe they are relishing self-indulgence or immorality are deceived and blind to the hell they live in…”. If they are unaware of the joy of living in a restored relationship with God, and are (relatively) satisfied with the world they created for themselves through use of the ways of the world systems, then where is their ‘torment’?

    I have traveled to extremely distressed areas of this world and have experienced injustices that strongly challenged my own faith. I have seen infants lying in their own filth, dying of AIDS, while the people who were responsible for putting/keeping them there were living an elite life far above the cultural norms of their nation. These people gave no thought to the socially ‘worthless’ children dying in this hellish stench-hole. They lived high with their elite friends, enjoying the very best in their culture. Apart from eternal justice – beyond the temporal things of this life – I see no hope for justice in such situations. If the situation of those children did not break God’s heart, and the self-indulgent indifference of the elite did not rouse His wrath, then perhaps I don’t know God at all. If there were no justice beyond the circumstances I witnessed, then perhaps I don’t know God at all.

    There is, however, another facet to justice – the kind we are called to in Christ Jesus. That is to reach out to those disenfranchised children, clen them up, pick them up, and hold and love them for the few short years they have in this life. To treat them with the dignity they deserve as members of the human family. I believe that is what God means when He tells us, “And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” -Micah 6:8
    Yes, we are to agents of God’s justice, but not His vengance. Vengance belongs to Him, the only One qualified to deal it.

  11. Ken,
    I don’t really have any answers. I think we should be horrified at the injustices of poverty and abuse. I agree that as the people of God, we can be the hands of justice.

    I eagerly anticipate the full expression of God’s justice on the earth. Besides the evil of injustice, the not-yet-realized defeat of tragedy and sickness is something that I long for also.

    I don’t presume to know what God’s justice, wrath, or mercy will look like for those involved in acts of horrific violence and greed.

    As far as those living in the deceit of sin believing that they are somehow free from its consequences, their lack of “torment” is simply a result of their blindness to the slow-eating cancer of being spiritually dead.

    Success, comfort, ease or pleasure can not substitute for being reconciled to God. The delusion that one is somehow free from God’s gaze or free from the destruction that sin causes is simply that, a delusion.

    There is no such thing as freedom from God’s justice, only the freedom that we find in His justice.

  12. I think we must agree to differ guys but was the ‘penalty’ to reconcile all mankind to God sorted at Calvary or do you believe in a limited atonement.If we have all sinned has the death of Christ not satisfied the justice issue rather than some future judgement time?I believe the establishment of righteousness or justice is the task we are given now in light of the ‘ punishment having been paid for all mankind’Has Jesus saved all mankind or only those who accept him in some way?

    1. Charlie,
      I don’t believe that there was a punishment or penalty to reconcile mankind to God, but rather an enemy to be defeated.

      All that was required for reconciliation, including forgiveness of sin, was accomplished on the cross.

      We are co-laborers in implementing justice. However justice – restoring things to the way they should be – is not yet fully realized.

      I don’t see judgment and justice ultimately as punishment but rather as vindication.

      1. Grace I don’t believe that either but was playing out the logical consequence of believing in substitutionary atonement.Playing devil’s advocate so to speak!

  13. Sorry but have a look at verses in Isaiah 46 that suggest in the King James version that God created evil?There is one to ponder over!

    1. Bob you caught me on – I think its around verse 16/17? I looked up the Hebrew and it can mean ‘calamity’.In other words God says He creates calamity!We always thought that was Satan’s job in my old Evangelical mindset.Haven’t got my old Testament with me on vacation – sorry!!

      1. I looked it up and it is Isaiah 45:7 Charlie. It reads in the KJV:

        “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

        And yes the newer versions translate it calamity. I find nothing new in this though.. if God created everything He certainly created us (and demons) with the ability to do evil things.

        But it would be an error to say that He does evil things.. just because He allows it does not mean that He causes it.

  14. I do not know this either Grace:

    “what God’s justice, wrath, or mercy will look like for those involved in acts of horrific violence and greed.”

    Some seem to say that they do know for sure and say that God will most definitely either grant universal salvation or judgment of those who despise Him.

  15. I wonder if our theology even misunderstands the point of “justice”. Maybe (I’m thinking out loud here, so to speak), just maybe the justice is God setting things straight with Satan – in other words, paying the ransom (through Jesus) to free us from that bondage that we were in.

    In other words, is there a reason why we must assume that “justice” means God makes people burn for eternity?

  16. I wonder if maybe the afterlife is just an extension of life.. those moving towards God will continue the ascent and those moving away will continue the descent? Possibly the ascent and descent are both infinite? Maybe it is not about God doing anything except standing still?

  17. Let’s begin with a scenario: There is a huge field of dried brush. In the middle of the field is a small burned-out section. As you are traversing across the field you suddenly notice the the field is on fire, and the flames are rapidly closing in on you from every direction. Where is the safest place to be? I would run to the burned-out section. There is no other escape.

    The Bible teaches that God’s final wrath will one day fall upon this corrupted creation. God’s wrath already fell once upon sin when Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin for us. It is the only place where God’s wrath has fallen thus far. Jesus is the world’s ‘burned-out’ spot. There is no other safe place in the entire field. The gospel unquestionably states that when we accept the atoning work of Christ on the cross, we are baptized INTO Him through the work of the Holy Spirit. We no longer belong to ourselves, we are safe IN Christ Jesus. Anyone who is not IN Christ when God’s final judgement falls are going to suffer God’s wrath on some level or another. I am not sure if that will be eternal, or if there are varying degrees (Jesus’ parables seem to strongly indicate there are). To believe there are ‘many paths’, or that every human (even those NOT in Christ), will escape God’s wrath through the atoning work of the cross doesn’t make any Biblical sense to me. Paul wirtes to the church of the Thessalonians “IN God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (1 thes 1:1) how they turned from idols (other ‘ways’ to god) and “wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead – Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.”

    How does He rescue us, by receiving us into Himself, the ‘burned-out’ spot where God’s wrath has already been quenched. “Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? (Romans 6:3) “IN Him we have redemption through His blood” (Eph. 1:7)

    I think it is dangerous to speculate beyond what the scriptures teach. It’s okay to question, and it’s okay to throw out dogma that keeps us from moving toward the light, but it’s dangerous for us to attempt to build doctrine while ignoring the clarity of scripture.

    You can read the context of Romans 6 and Ephesians 1, I don’t think I have removed these thoughts from context. Yes, there is Biblical mystery. Without mystery, there is no need for faith.

  18. Ken I used to know what Scripture ‘clearly teaches’ but then it all fell apart like a house of cards or a jigsaw where all the ‘doctrines ‘ didn’t fit together anymore.It all depends on what hermeneutic specs one is wearing.I now read the Scriptures or Writings through Middle Eastern wisdom tradition specs and they reveal something very different than Western Christian interpretations ‘reveal’.Nietzche said that all interpretation is in the hands of the powerful – after having being raised by a tough Protestant pastor father.I think I agree with him! By the way it’s debatable whether Paul actually wrote Thessalonians!Yours forever questioning and seeking!

    1. Just a caution. I am also skeptical of theologians setting doubt as to the validity of the cannon of some of the books of the Bible – particularly the ones that seem to most contradict their theology.

      If scripture clearly teaches nothing, then we are all fools for following Christ. For then we can all live according to our own understanding of things, and in the end it won’t matter anyway because we all be ‘saved’.

      There is much in the scriptures that may be unclear, but there are certainly some things that scripture doeas clearly teach. I confess, studying scripture from the perspective of the first century Mediterranian culture adds clarity and can make sense of some questionable passages (to the Western mind), but it does not negate the gospel of the Kingdom of God e.g. 1 Corinthians 15. BTW, No reputable scholar would dispute that Paul wrote Romans 6.

      In your studies from the hermeneutic specs through Middle Eastern wisdom, how do you see the prophesies regarding the Day of the Lord in the book of Joel?

      1. I wasn’t the one that brought up Middle Eastern wisdom, but I think the prophecies of Joel are referred to by Peter as finding their fulfillment (or at least the beginning of that fulfillment) in his day. That doesn’t rely on Middle Eastern perspective, just a reading of Acts 2 ;)

        Regarding doubt of elements of the canon, I think it’s a good thing to be willing to ask those questions when there is evidence casting doubt. Assuming that all issues of canon have been settled once and for all has led to some distorted views of scripture, in my opinion.

        That’s not specifically directed at you, ken, but your comment just made me think along those lines.

  19. Ken

    Will get back to you when my laptop is recharged!I agree by the way that Paul did write Romans – a great book about the freedom he found in Christ.I love Paul – a real mystic who visited the 3rd Heaven – sounds almost gnostic!

  20. I guess we could really take off on a rabbit trail here – but I won’t push it. Just expressing some opinions … and convictions. the difference? I guess a conviction is something your willing to die for. With that in mind, I have a lot fewer convictions than I used to. :)

  21. Ken maybe the rabbit trail is where we need to go – like Alice in Wonderland – down the rabbit hole.Middle Eastern wisdom or mystic tradition which Yeshua would have been familiar with gave multiple meanings to Scripture – the Jewish midrash is one such example.They saw a passage of Scripture as a 20 course meal instead of just a main course.Every interpretation was a s valid as any other – all were a source of life flow from Wisdom or the Divine One.Aramaic the language of Yeshua has multiple word meanings with each word having roots that can give a rich collage of meaning – a bit like creation itself I suppose.We in Western thought have limited language and meaning ( due to our mechanistic world view) to a narrow field.The main message of Yeshua in this tradition was ‘The Kingdom Within’ i.e. the immanence of God who prior to His coming was seen by the Jews as a great transcendent God.The Kingdom will always start within by revelation or awakening and then spread out to society through our compassion.I now tend to read Paul in this light and it is certainly alot less stressful than marching down the road of Reformed Theology.Have a wee look at ‘The Hidden Gospel’ by British writer Neil Douglas Klotz.He is an academic who is an expert on Aramaic etc as well as having deep exposure to all 3 world religious traditions.The only thing I think I would die for is Yeshua and not any doctrinal beliefs surrounding Him.Mutual respect Ken!

  22. “The only thing I think I would die for is Yeshua and not any doctrinal beliefs surrounding Him”

    Simple statement with profound paradox!

    If one subscribed to the conviction of being “in Christ”, then one is called to die for Him daily – in every choice we face.

    If one subcribed to the conviction of ‘scripture alone’ then one would go to the gallows or the fire rather than bow to the supreme authority of tradition.

    If one held the conviction that the Bible is for every man – even the common ‘laity’, one would die for the purpose of translating/publishing it for the masses.

    If one held to the conviction of his wedding vows, and his place as provider for his family, one would die for his wife and children.

    If one held to the conviction that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness was an endowment of the Creator, one would die to either gain or preserve them.

    Each of these convictions can be (and, in my case, are) derived from doctrine (biblical principles). Tens of thousands died to protect my right to openly hold them. I was willing to die for the right of my children and grandchildren to openly hold them – or to openly hold any convictions they choose.

    I do not see ‘doctrine’ as a pejorative term at all. I see ‘dogma’ (arrogantly holding/enforcing an opinion)as the real danger to the liberty we have in Christ. As Grace’s last post suggests, wrestling with doctrine can be healthy. As long as we’re wrestling, there is little danger in turning it into dogma. But, I am convinced that there is some doctrine that is firmly established as essential to the Christian faith, and is to be used as the foundation upon which we are to stand as we wrestle with the non-essential doctrines. I call these ‘convictions’. The problems arise between ‘denominations’ because they cannot fully agree as to what and how much ‘essential doctrine’ they push into that foundational statement.

    I have opinions about God’s wrath and judgement, and eternal hell, and who’s ‘in’ and who’s ‘out’ – and I continue to wrestle with them. But I wrestle from the foundation of my convictions. One of those convictions is the authority of God’s Word. I will gladly debate my opinions. I will openly listen to opposing views. But if those views are derived from human philosophy, mystical writings, or other religious writings, in my world view, the Word of God trumps them. But I am still willing to die for the right of others to choose their own world view and its sources. In the big picture – that’s exactly what Jesus did.

  23. Ken, the problem I see with doctrine is as Peter Rollins would say, “We don’t go far enough.” We say we’re willing to die for our children, but would we truly take the cross as far as Jesus did and die for our enemy?

  24. I guess it would totally depend on the situation. It would have to be extreme in order for me to physically die for my enemy.

    I will say this however, we should all die (to self) for our enemy if we are to follow Christ. And, by God’s grace, I have had to do this often. Jesus tells us to take up our cross DAILY and follow Him. I believe that is to offer ourselves as a living sacrifice in order to establish and expand the presence of his Kingdom.

    Love does not insist on its own way.

  25. Ken maybe I’m wrong but I think Grace used the quote ‘Truth makes a good wrestling partner’ – not doctrine.Yeshua claimed to be Truth.The wrestler in the Jacob story was described as a man or angel of the Lord – i.e.perhaps a theophany namely Yeshua.

  26. My daily devotions brought me to Luke 12 today. Here Jesus says some things that brought me back to the topic of this post. In verses 4 & 5 He says: “I tell you my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear; fear him who after the killing of the body, has the power to throw you into hell (geenna) . Yes, I tell you, fear him.”

    Geenna was a physical place where unclaimed bodies (usually crimnals, etc.) were dumped and burned. What didn’t burn was eventually consumed by ‘the worm’. A nasty place indeed. But by keeping Jesus statement in context, I don’t think the literal geenna is what He is referring to. Once dead, a mortal can not threaten you with anything. Where he throws your body wouldn’t be of any further consequence to you. So He must be speaking of something beyond this life, and (as I see it) by inference it is a punishment that only God has control of.

    Just a few verses later Jesus says “I tell you whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. But He who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.” Same context. There is some sort of divine rejection inferred here. Whether temporal or eternal is not indicated.

    Even later in the chapter, He says in verses 47 & 48 “That servant who knows his master’s will and … does no do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.” The context of these two verses is the return of the master – which I believe is reference of His second coming, not as the Suffering Servant, but as the Triumphant King. Here I see what I believe to be a clear reference to degree of punishment.

    Finally, at the end of the chapter He syays “As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the offices, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” I don’t know how else to interpret this except that those who have not been reconciled in this life are somehow going to be required to pay their own debt in the next. Again, there seems to be a degree of punishment inferred. I cannot imagine it as eternal, but I am not the judge.

    The entire chapter seems to be addressing temporal vs. eternal values, and God’s justice regarding them.

  27. Ken, you brought out:

    “I tell you whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. But He who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God.”

    It is interesting to me hat in the second sentence it does NOT say, “the Son of Man will disown.” It says, “But He who disowns me before men will be disowned.”

    What if the disowning is self perpetuated?

    I think this gets to the heart of the problem in the story. Where does the problem reside? Is it in God or humanity. And the story consistently reveals, at least to me, that the problem is in us. So what if judgment is continuous self rejection?

    This doesn’t invalidate the cross. It continues to reveal the problem. What if the final judgment is God declaring who we really are and as some would say, us rejecting that judgment? That is hell to me. And it doesn’t just take place int he afterlife. It takes place right here and now.

  28. Agreed – the problem is in us, but only as far as ‘us’ isn’t in Christ. Christ offers us sanctuary in Himself. If we reject that sanctuary, we have rejected His ownership. ‘Self’ doesn’t want to be owned – it’s called pride. Only those who are willing to lose their lives for His sake will truly find life. The rest … ? I think Luke 12 emphasises that because ‘self’ wanted to be so independedent of Christ, then self will have to pay for it’s own trangressions. If I correctly interpret Jesus here, those who did not accept His offer out of ignorance will experience less servere punishment than those who wilfully rejected His offer.

    From my limited experience in my 60+ years of observing life under the sun – there is no ture justice in this world system through which we traverse (David laments this fact in Psalms 37 and 73), but the writers of the scriptures continually point to the end – where God will one day perfectly balance all of the scales, and humanity will experience living in true justice throught the ages. That day is not yet here, and I personally do not believe those that reject Christ in this day are literally living in hell in the here and now any more than His followers are living in heaven in the here and now.

    Meanwhile, those who have accepted Jesus’ offer and who now belong to Him are to practice His justice in this world system as a witness to others that His Kingdom has indeed come. Matthew 25:34-36 gives us a clear picture of His justice.

  29. I really appreciate this entry. I just got done reading Luke 16, and was looking for some insight. It is helpful to read how other people process, and attempt to understand this passage. Thank you.

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