Bad Boys, Bad Boys

Whatchya gonna do?


Driscoll Reaches New Spiritual Level, Kicks His Own Ass

In Revelation, Jesus is a pride fighter with a tattoo down His leg, a sword in His hand and the commitment to make someone bleed. That is a guy I can worship. I cannot worship the hippie, diaper, halo Christ because I cannot worship a guy I can beat up.
Mark Driscoll

He is the last of the true Christians.  In a world of effeminate losers toting Derrida around in their beer-stained man purses, Driscoll is standing in the gap, fighting for truth, justice, and of course, the American way.  It’s a world where everything is stark, everything is simple and God is remade comfortably in Mark Driscoll’s masculine image.  – Halden, Inhabitatio Dei (ht Wess Daniels)

Another WWF Fan?

Talk about kicking ass, how many of you would pay to see Driscoll and Bentley in the ring?

BWIII takes on Frank Viola

Rounds 1, 2 , and 3 are up, and it looks like there are more to come.

Speaking of fireworks…

Happy 4th of July!

I probably won’t be around for the next few days. Hopefully I will be busy parading, partying, and picnicking.

I have already said plenty about Driscoll, Bentley, and Viola.
Look it up if you are interested.

Feel free to share your comments.


18 thoughts on “Bad Boys, Bad Boys

  1. Funny how our views of Jesus indeed inspire our actions…

    Jesus could do more damage with a look or a word than Driscoll could ever imagine being able to do with all his physical prowess…

    But it is true we do not want to be pals with a Jesus we would be comfortable with, correct? For every Driscoll there is a much softer side being espoused by those that say Jesus is of quite different temperament.

    I don’t think Jesus & the 12 went about punching each other on the arm until one of them cried “Uncle!”. I am sure living then was physically more demanding & that being blue collar types resulted in them being fit. Lots of walking. Diet was very lean. Daily physical labor the norm. They certainly did not live a life of ease. But physical machoism not one of the fruit of the Spirit nor a qualification for being an elder. One thing Mark does do is paint a very clear picture of the type of Jesus he is comfortable with. He doesn’t try to leave anything up to our imagination. And that is the only Jesus he finds believable. Everybody else’s Jesus just too insipid for his liking. He, like the rest of us, in for the biggest surprise of our lives when we actually see Him face-to-face…

  2. Oh, and I do like the thought of Bentley & Driscoll doing some serious ring time together! Unless of course Bentley knows the outcome in advance & gets Emma to come to his aid like a heavenly tag team. Driscoll will have to depend solely on his own physical ability this side of the Second Coming. Jesus will not be showing up for any tag team support in such a scenario…

  3. been having conversations around this stuff today. it honestly makes my head spin that these folks (especially mark) can continue to spit this crap out. i’ll never understand the ‘jesus i can beat up’ line. never. and honestly, i can’t make myself understand how he could possibly not see the problems with his statement. i’m feeling pretty ill.

  4. “Jesus seems to have a lot of fans these days. But being a fan, and being a Jesus shaped follower of Christ are two entirely different realities.” Internet Monk

    Happy 4th of July, Grace – I’m not sure if this a right thing to say, but I do hope you relax and enjoy the day.

    We do worship Someone who got beat up, and He got beat up real bad, the Lamb that Isaiah spoke about – come on down from the cross and we’ll believe, the crowd yelled – it’s because He didn’t come down that I beleive.

  5. This is why I love this blog! I never know what I am going to see when I oepn it …

    Thanks Grace for exposing the vast diverstiy of opinions and idiosyncracies being manifested in the church today as we undergo an incredible struggle of transformation from a somewhat static institutional model to a vibrant missional model that is to be once again relevant to a rapidly expanding diverse culture.

    Unfortunately, I think the people who Christ is seeking find the church amusing and entertaining, but not in an attractional way.

    Have a great 4th!

  6. Apparently I don’t have the required level of testosterone to make any sense out of either Driscoll or Bentley, though a wrestling match might be amusing…

    Happy 4th!

  7. It is good to see somebody taking Barna/Viola to task for the many historical inaccuracies presented as fact in their book. I ran out of time before the book needed to be returned to the library, but one of these days I’d like to catalog why a good number of the dates and “first instances” they give in their summary toward the end of the book are wrong. They talk big, but its clear their knowledge of early church history is both shallow and biased.


  8. joseph,
    If nothing else, Mark is certain about his personal view of Jesus. I’m sure that we all have distortions in our understanding of Him.

    Mark’s statement doesn’t make sense when we consider Jesus’ own words in the sermon on the mount and the fact that He allowed Himself to be beaten and hung on a cross.

    Thanks Mark. It doesn’t seem that Driscoll yet understands the kind of powerlessness that Jesus espoused.

    Send your money here for tickets. ;)
    Which guy would you put money on to win?

    I am somewhere in the middle between BWIII and PC. Ben’s arguments for traditional structures seem as biased as Frank’s arguments against it.

    There isn’t much middle ground with any of these guys. It seems that people either passionately agree with them or passionately disagree.

    I erased the line in my post about too much testosterone in the air.
    I didn’t want to offend my male readers. ;)

    mama’s boy,
    I am probably in the minority in saying that the premise of Pagan Christianity was an important message for the church today. I agree with some of the critiques about things in the book, yet I wish that it didn’t overshadow the idea that most of the church practices of today are not scripturally mandated. Whether specific practices are a help or a hindrance in a particular context is an important discussion for today, and I appreciated Viola’s attempt to open that discussion.

  9. Grace,

    I think BWIII makes some good points but I agree he seems to come with his own bias as well. And at times misintereprets what Barna/Viola say.

    I guess you will have to write the book with the middle view. I know a guy who can get it published. :-)

  10. As is often the case, I’m late getting in on this. I think the problem most church leaders have in the west is that most of us have read the book. Used to be you could just settle for the experts telling you what it said, and that would be your view too. Paul called us noble for examining the scriptures and having the audacity to challenge the great apostle’s view, but now most call us rebellious.

    I mean really, where is the pastor in the scriptures? (Eph 4:11 only) Where is the pulpit, and the choir, and the Sunday School? Where is the 501c3 in scripture? How about the service – 20 minutes of music followed by announcements followed by sipping a tiny little cup and wafer for communion, followed by the sermon, followed by the altar call. Just where is that outlined in scripture? Where are the building programs and building pledges in the scripture? Where are the salaried professional clergy in the New Testament? By the way, does the early church history record what each of the apostle’s salary was? So what do you do when you outgrow Solomon’s Colonade? Build a bigger building to house everyone when you get it finished 100 years later? Why weren’t Pauls letters written to the pastor and/or elders at Ephesus, Corinth, Thessolonica, etc?

    When you look at much of the western model of doing church – I have to say – there’s very little scripture to support it. Personally, I’m tired of defending something that you need a PHD to even discuss. So what are we suppose to do – go to Asbury so people like BWIII can tell us this is all ok? Or be satisfied with sitting in a pew and paying for people like MD to tell us how it really is?

    BTW – I love the film footage on the Asbury revival – it looked just like 1 Cor 14:26. Imagine that, a church service that actually looks something/anything like what’s written in the scripture.

  11. Opening up conversation about the origin of Christian practice is a superbly fantastic idea. However, using inaccurate and skewed information and methods to condemn common practice is a bad idea. There are excellent, scholarly works that address this issue. Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine is one book that looks in particular at the doctrine of the Trinity and the Arian heresy, as well as trying to lay out a general framework for addressing these types of questions. There are other books out there as well. They typically address one topic, to avoid being thin on the facts. Barna/Viola didn’t have a problem being thin on the facts, because their knowledge was such that they couldn’t be anything else. I read Rodney Stark’s “the Rise of Christianity” around the same time that I read Barna/Viola’s book. The tone of Stark’s work: humble, acknowledging differences of opinion, nuances and uncertainties contrasted brightly with the brash, arrogant statements made in Barna/Viola’s book which ignored nuances, uncertainties and facts that contradicted their opinions. This was in spite of the fact that Stark was far more knowledgeable about early Christianity and had far more evidence to back up his novel ideas than did Stark/Viola.


  12. Driscoll’s view of Jesus quite American in its idolatry. Fits quite neatly into the self-sufficient, “don’t mess with me” swagger & rugged individualism that conquered this great land…

    His Jesus the John Wayne of Galilee. The “true” disciples, His posse…

    Jesus is the take names, kick ass Messiah. And He is not happy with anyone not willing to challenge Him to a bare knuckle round or two.

    Driscoll isn’t the only one that ‘frames’ who this Jesus is that he is willing to worship. Other writers attempt to frame interaction with God with helpful definitions & theological parameters befitting the sacred topic addressed.

    I remember John Eldredge’s Wild at Heart series or theme about how we as men+women were created to interact with God & be a ‘truer’ representation of our genders. But even this approach is flawed in its premise: not all men & women fit neatly into his concepts of how we are wired…

    There is no accurate, true, all encompassing perspective of human gender representation let alone one of a God we know from afar. He should be like this we reason. Or that. Or somehow that seems uncharacteristic of this Jesus we read about in the gospel accounts. Seems others throughout history have seen Him differently. There is more written about Jesus than I could possibly catalogue let alone read in my lifetime.

    Driscoll may not be completely inaccurate in his imaginings. But his insistence that he has the only true picture in mind is so limiting & one dimensional & narrow it becomes the caricature he did not intend…

    It becomes laughable. Clownish. Goofy. Anything but what he wanted it to portray. Reminds me of the movie ET when Drew Barrymore dresses up the alien in costume & Eliot comes to the poor creatures rescue…

    I think that will happen whenever we attempt to hem in the Almighty by our definitions. What we perceive may indeed be a facet of His person, but it is neither absolute nor constrictive by any stretch of the imagination. It simply is part of a grander scale we cannot capture or manipulate or copyright. He does extend beyond the box we attempt to place Him in. Not because He does not want to be known. But simply because we want to be comfortable with thet part of Him we draw our lines around. He is no tame lion to be sure. But neither does He body slam the bruised reed that seeks Him out.

    Will we get to ‘see’ Jesus as He is when we all gather round the Throne together? Or will He allow us to see Him as He chooses to represent Himself to us individually? Is that going to be a gift we alone get to enjoy? Hmmm…

  13. MB wrote;

    However, using inaccurate and skewed information and methods to condemn common practice is a bad idea.

    There’s just something in that statement that makes me hear, “Common practice is the correct, non-skewed orthodoxy/praxy.” But, I’ve been around too long to believe that.

    The “skewing” of our faith began quite early and accelerated rapidly. The Didache is probably our earliest post-Apostolic document that both skews and attempts to deal with contemporary skewings.

    If I had to choose between the skew of Ignatius and the skew of Viola/Barna…I’d choose the later hands down. Fortunately, by the Grace of God, we’re not required to register our party affiliation. ;o)


  14. “Driscoll unleashed in the UK!” – happening next Friday and I’ve been invited. Might even go along just for the curiosity factor. Last month Jim Wallis was over – think Driscoll could be a TOTALLY different night! ;-) Especially as the event blurb starts:

    “Mark Driscoll is a very able and forthright preacher, who isn’t hesitant to tackle big issues head-on in a Christ-centred way. I think it’s fair to say that Mark’s approach to fences is to demolish them rather than sit on them!”

    If I go, I shall make sure to report back!

  15. First time ever commenting on Mark Driscoll:

    You do know that Mark Driscoll was being witty with that statement, right? If you listen to a good amount of Driscoll you’d know that his heart is soft for the Lord and even if Jesus was the hippie one Mark would still worship him.

    We all know Mark is a fan of guy-stuff like UFC, beer and cigars. Who cares? Relax, get a hint and try not to be so emotional about it.

    As for Todd Bentley, I guess he may have actually done those things. My thoughts on Todd Bentley can be found in the comments on a post by Roger Mugs called On revival, healing, uncomfort, and Todd Bentley – back off ya’ll (Acts 5:38-39).

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