Comments on: Subversion

By: grace

grace — Wed, 22 Jul 2009 03:38:33 +0000

Great thoughts everyone! I would love to discuss this more, but I’m a bit overwhelmed and preoccupied at the moment. Hopefully I can be around more next week.

By: traveller

traveller — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:51:39 +0000

Many would agree there is a significant transition occurring. As I read these thoughts by Grace and others, as well as the comments, the issue is how do we define “church”. If by that we mean the institutional organization then my opinion is that it will not survive over the longer term. We see huge cracks in its foundation that will lead to its collapse. This may take decades but is coming.

If we mean church as those individuals who follow Jesus then yes it will most certainly survive and be much more organic. Nevertheless, there are likely to be multiple expressions of church, some more organic, some less so. The age of the monolithic expression of church, so-called Christendom, is over.

By: shaun

shaun — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 03:56:17 +0000

I so agree with what you are saying here Grace.
I was a part of one of those mega churches that was so like a corporation. In fact I was pretty blinded to the reality of it until my wife told me that she couldn’t keep going there but she wouldn’t try to keep me from going. Our conversations after that really opened my eyes to see what was really going on there.
There were many good things happening there but there was this attitude of business that was so like corporate America.
I hope there is an exodus from the status quot and that we can get real with each other about what really matters.

By: cindy

cindy — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:32:00 +0000

wonderful grace!

By: Mark R

Mark R — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 02:43:26 +0000

These thoughts are from where I stand true and all it has produced is religion and not relationship with a Living God – kind of like the established models of church are to build their towers of Babels – ampty, shallow and hollow.

Grace, you have a great day.

By: David Olson

David Olson — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 01:58:48 +0000

Great thoughts Grace. What do you think a recovered church will look like? Will it be prominent like those doomed to collapse or it will it be more inconspicuous and insignificant—like natural woodland growth—everywhere but not pretentious? Will it affect the world by strategy or by gently replacing fallen structures?

By: Charlie

Charlie — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:37:43 +0000

The church has been following these type of systems since 385 A.D. when Constantine’s sponsorship kicked in! Who or what are the modern Constantine’s?

By: Sarah

Sarah — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:57:45 +0000

“I don’t know if there is hope for economic and political change or revolution in that arena. That isn’t what I want to address. These articles highlight the depth of failure by the church to model an alternative truth.”

Yes, exactly. The church has been coopted by a false system, many with a great deal of naivity, it seems.

Or perhaps, the church has been seduced, and has embraced the promises of this false system with much too much enthusiasm – to the point that we became promoters and evangelists of world systems (which are in fact at odds with Christ) in the name of Christ. But I am encouraged as the right questions are increasingly being asked, and our idols confronted. God is refining us and restoring us.

By: Francois

Francois — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:29:06 +0000

Thanks for sharing that. “Accidentaly” bumped into your blog. Very, very, very cool stuff. Please keep writing – will visit daily.

By: John L

John L — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:21:42 +0000

Xlnt insight, Grace. This is the very essence and struggle of the human condition – greed, power, envy, desire for things that will ultimately harm us. We’re all dealing with these dynamics in one way or another, every day of our life.

Rushkoff has a new book which addresses the ways in which coporatism (like Islamism, or Christianism, perhaps) mirrors human failure on a grand scale. Alas, all systems mirror this failure, which is why, I think, Jesus promoted a Kingdom not made with hands, not corrupted with desires for power. We’re straddling those two worlds that Havel speaks of, the facade kingdom and the eternal Kingdom.

I think it’s our duty to resist the lowercase kingdoms, the churches of desire and fame and power centralization, the churches that mimic and model politics and corporatism, and even promote such models as ecclesia. Not an easy task.