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	<title>Comments on: TULIP or BEERS: Unconditional Election</title>
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	<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/tulip-or-beers-unconditional-election/</link>
	<description>...on earth as it is in heaven</description>
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		<title>By: grace</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/tulip-or-beers-unconditional-election/#comment-9276</link>
		<dc:creator>grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/?p=3370#comment-9276</guid>
		<description>Pam,
I can relate to your position of hopefulness.  I think Jesus as the second Adam is a pretty valid argument for the inclusion of all mankind in the cure of redemption.  

Likewise, I don&#039;t have all the answers about the afterlife, but I do see it as tragic to live this life alienated from the beautiful love of the Father.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pam,<br />
I can relate to your position of hopefulness.  I think Jesus as the second Adam is a pretty valid argument for the inclusion of all mankind in the cure of redemption.  </p>
<p>Likewise, I don&#8217;t have all the answers about the afterlife, but I do see it as tragic to live this life alienated from the beautiful love of the Father.</p>
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		<title>By: Pam Hogeweide</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/tulip-or-beers-unconditional-election/#comment-9270</link>
		<dc:creator>Pam Hogeweide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 08:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/?p=3370#comment-9270</guid>
		<description>yep, nobody really, truly knows anything about the hereafter for sure. which is why i describe myself as a &quot;hopeful reconcilationist,&quot; someone who holds faith that God will reconcile every human being to himself at some point in eternity.

I reject eternal damnation.

I put my faith in the hope that all punishment from God is redemptive and if there is a literal place called hell, then it&#039;s purpose is ultimately to reconcile the separated person, not cause them unbelievable suffering for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever....you get the picture. A short life of corruption and misguided rejection of the Creator ought not be repayed with an unjust penalty of Forever Screwed.

Also, and these points I know are very brief and not totally outlined with an exegetical framework to defend them (google around...there&#039;s plenty of bible for the reconcilation perspective....)  anyway, I also want to say that when I think of Adam having brought sin to all of mankind, and who can opt out of that, then I like to think that the power of the cross of Jesus redeems all of mankind, and that none will opt out as they discover in this life or the next the true beauty of who Jesus is and who they have been created to be.  Having said that, I am aware that the bible teaches that angels in the presence of the Lord chose to rebel and &quot;opt out&quot; of his favor.  I can only wonder if humans are different because we are made in the image of our Creator. Angels were not...I don&#039;t know. 

It&#039;s late. I really ought not to try to explain myself after midnight....!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yep, nobody really, truly knows anything about the hereafter for sure. which is why i describe myself as a &#8220;hopeful reconcilationist,&#8221; someone who holds faith that God will reconcile every human being to himself at some point in eternity.</p>
<p>I reject eternal damnation.</p>
<p>I put my faith in the hope that all punishment from God is redemptive and if there is a literal place called hell, then it&#8217;s purpose is ultimately to reconcile the separated person, not cause them unbelievable suffering for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever&#8230;.you get the picture. A short life of corruption and misguided rejection of the Creator ought not be repayed with an unjust penalty of Forever Screwed.</p>
<p>Also, and these points I know are very brief and not totally outlined with an exegetical framework to defend them (google around&#8230;there&#8217;s plenty of bible for the reconcilation perspective&#8230;.)  anyway, I also want to say that when I think of Adam having brought sin to all of mankind, and who can opt out of that, then I like to think that the power of the cross of Jesus redeems all of mankind, and that none will opt out as they discover in this life or the next the true beauty of who Jesus is and who they have been created to be.  Having said that, I am aware that the bible teaches that angels in the presence of the Lord chose to rebel and &#8220;opt out&#8221; of his favor.  I can only wonder if humans are different because we are made in the image of our Creator. Angels were not&#8230;I don&#8217;t know. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s late. I really ought not to try to explain myself after midnight&#8230;.!</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/tulip-or-beers-unconditional-election/#comment-9257</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/?p=3370#comment-9257</guid>
		<description>AMEN JAMES!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AMEN JAMES!!</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/tulip-or-beers-unconditional-election/#comment-9254</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 02:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/?p=3370#comment-9254</guid>
		<description>The more I&#039;ve been thinking and praying on this, the more it strikes me: we may never know until we &quot;get there&quot; as to how God works in this manner. I&#039;m not convinced its our place to know. 

Unfortunately, we talk to much, and most of it in the pulpit. We give sermons on theologies and proclaim doctrines when the everyday Tom, Dick or Carey would do better without it. James and Peter and Paul decided not to worry with theologies and history but to just exhort [the gentiles] to stay away from sins and stick fast to love. Of course there are the elders and whoever, pastors, et al who perhaps need to know some of it so as to keep us in line, but even then, I would trust that more to the Spirit and Scripture than theology. I&#039;m pretty sure none of us has it perfectly figured out anyway.

But one thing I am sure of, that whether we are elected or not, whether our neighbor is elected or not, instead of trying to figure out who is in the kingdom, its better to act as though we all already are and live our lives accordingly. Reminds me to go re-read Lewis&#039; The Weight of Glory.

Live simply, love generously, care deeply, speak kindly, give without measure and leave the rest to God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The more I&#8217;ve been thinking and praying on this, the more it strikes me: we may never know until we &#8220;get there&#8221; as to how God works in this manner. I&#8217;m not convinced its our place to know. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, we talk to much, and most of it in the pulpit. We give sermons on theologies and proclaim doctrines when the everyday Tom, Dick or Carey would do better without it. James and Peter and Paul decided not to worry with theologies and history but to just exhort [the gentiles] to stay away from sins and stick fast to love. Of course there are the elders and whoever, pastors, et al who perhaps need to know some of it so as to keep us in line, but even then, I would trust that more to the Spirit and Scripture than theology. I&#8217;m pretty sure none of us has it perfectly figured out anyway.</p>
<p>But one thing I am sure of, that whether we are elected or not, whether our neighbor is elected or not, instead of trying to figure out who is in the kingdom, its better to act as though we all already are and live our lives accordingly. Reminds me to go re-read Lewis&#8217; The Weight of Glory.</p>
<p>Live simply, love generously, care deeply, speak kindly, give without measure and leave the rest to God.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom (aka Volkmar)</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/tulip-or-beers-unconditional-election/#comment-9239</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom (aka Volkmar)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 22:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/?p=3370#comment-9239</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll second that...


Tom</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll second that&#8230;</p>
<p>Tom</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/tulip-or-beers-unconditional-election/#comment-9209</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/?p=3370#comment-9209</guid>
		<description>I would like to give a shout-out to Leonard Sweet and Frank Viola for penning &#039;A Jesus manifesto for the 21st Century Church. You can download a PDF copy at http://www.ptmin.org/AJesusManifesto.pdf

Here are a few thoughts from it that I find somewhat pertinent to this series:

&quot;Jesus does not leave his disciples with CliffsNotes for a systematic theology. He leaves his disciples with breath and body.&quot;

&quot;Jesus does not leave his disciples with a coherent and clear belief system by which to love God and others. Jesus gives his disciples wounds to touch and hands to heal.&quot;

&quot;Jesus does not leave his disciples with intellectual belief or a “Christian worldview.” He leaves his disciples with a relational faith.&quot;

The entire six pages are worth a read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to give a shout-out to Leonard Sweet and Frank Viola for penning &#8216;A Jesus manifesto for the 21st Century Church. You can download a PDF copy at <a href="http://www.ptmin.org/AJesusManifesto.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ptmin.org/AJesusManifesto.pdf</a></p>
<p>Here are a few thoughts from it that I find somewhat pertinent to this series:</p>
<p>&#8220;Jesus does not leave his disciples with CliffsNotes for a systematic theology. He leaves his disciples with breath and body.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Jesus does not leave his disciples with a coherent and clear belief system by which to love God and others. Jesus gives his disciples wounds to touch and hands to heal.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Jesus does not leave his disciples with intellectual belief or a “Christian worldview.” He leaves his disciples with a relational faith.&#8221;</p>
<p>The entire six pages are worth a read.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/tulip-or-beers-unconditional-election/#comment-9208</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:56:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/?p=3370#comment-9208</guid>
		<description>Ken, every time I read your stuff, I just want to go quoting it around to everyone I meet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken, every time I read your stuff, I just want to go quoting it around to everyone I meet.</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/tulip-or-beers-unconditional-election/#comment-9204</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/?p=3370#comment-9204</guid>
		<description>Simply put, a &#039;mystery&#039; is something beyond understanding or explanation. Yet, theologians continue to attempt to explain the mysteries of God. Even Paul gave it a shot through and into Romans 11, when until exhausted of abilty, he finally concludes with a doxology extolling the great mystery of God&#039;s wisdom, knowledge, justice and ways in verses 33-36. I don&#039;t care to compete with Paul :)

The mystery of God&#039;s sovereignty and man&#039;s free will is shrouded in another mystery - that of time and eternity. We are creatures who are currently &#039;trapped&#039; in a time-space continuum paradigm whereas God is not. He transcends time and space. There is no way to adaquately explain it. When we try, we end up with statements like &#039;Unconditional Election&#039; that suck the passion and urgency of God&#039;s love for humanity out of the soul and leave us with an apathetic spiritual maintenance program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simply put, a &#8216;mystery&#8217; is something beyond understanding or explanation. Yet, theologians continue to attempt to explain the mysteries of God. Even Paul gave it a shot through and into Romans 11, when until exhausted of abilty, he finally concludes with a doxology extolling the great mystery of God&#8217;s wisdom, knowledge, justice and ways in verses 33-36. I don&#8217;t care to compete with Paul <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The mystery of God&#8217;s sovereignty and man&#8217;s free will is shrouded in another mystery &#8211; that of time and eternity. We are creatures who are currently &#8216;trapped&#8217; in a time-space continuum paradigm whereas God is not. He transcends time and space. There is no way to adaquately explain it. When we try, we end up with statements like &#8216;Unconditional Election&#8217; that suck the passion and urgency of God&#8217;s love for humanity out of the soul and leave us with an apathetic spiritual maintenance program.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/tulip-or-beers-unconditional-election/#comment-9202</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/?p=3370#comment-9202</guid>
		<description>“This is His desire for all mankind without selectivity or exclusion.  Inclusion is not conditioned on merit but is simply the result of His extravagant love.”

Charis implied that this statement bordered on Christian universalism – which we’ve all been taught is a no-no.

But I think it’s a fair reflection of the character and nature of the Father as demonstrated by Jesus in the gospels and by the actions of the early church.  As such, it’s a good summary of how we should treat others today.  If it’s not true, then do we really think this?

“This is His desire for all mankind, but with selective exclusion.  Inclusion is conditioned on merit, not simply the result of His extravagant love.”

Maybe we should just follow the two commandments he gave us and let the doctrines fall where they fall.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“This is His desire for all mankind without selectivity or exclusion.  Inclusion is not conditioned on merit but is simply the result of His extravagant love.”</p>
<p>Charis implied that this statement bordered on Christian universalism – which we’ve all been taught is a no-no.</p>
<p>But I think it’s a fair reflection of the character and nature of the Father as demonstrated by Jesus in the gospels and by the actions of the early church.  As such, it’s a good summary of how we should treat others today.  If it’s not true, then do we really think this?</p>
<p>“This is His desire for all mankind, but with selective exclusion.  Inclusion is conditioned on merit, not simply the result of His extravagant love.”</p>
<p>Maybe we should just follow the two commandments he gave us and let the doctrines fall where they fall.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/tulip-or-beers-unconditional-election/#comment-9201</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/?p=3370#comment-9201</guid>
		<description>Yeah, now this gets me. The Total Depravity, I can understand and can find it Biblical but the Unconditional Election crud sounds like someone took some funky drugs and then started proof-texting. That doesn&#039;t fly Biblically nor &quot;theologically.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, now this gets me. The Total Depravity, I can understand and can find it Biblical but the Unconditional Election crud sounds like someone took some funky drugs and then started proof-texting. That doesn&#8217;t fly Biblically nor &#8220;theologically.&#8221;</p>
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