I think the call is for men to use their power to break the structures that continue to exclude women. The purpose of this is not to elevate women in hierarchy, but rather to be the redemptive society that exemplifies equality and inclusion of everyone, whether they are considered the greatest or least in the broader society.

That’s the bottom line of this issue for me, and I think if we don’t get it right with this issue, we won’t get it right in regard to other marginalized voices either.

I am agreement with you. Thanks for adding additional good perspective.

Jerry,

I, like you, have forsaken the institution. However, there are women (and men) who have not yet done, nor, perhaps, will they do so. For those who choose to remain in an institutional expression something does need to be done.

We are all at different places in our journey…..

It appears we agree more than I thought. Thanks for the conversation and exchange of ideas.

I agree wholeheartedy with what you are saying that as men we should encourage, help, lift up, serve, do whatever we can to reverse the social injustice. I do acknowledge the existance of it and the need to address it.

Probably where we disagree is that I have no faith at all that I can change a system that is responsible for the vast majority of it. I have personally chosen to remove myself (as much as possible) from that system.

There is a Cry for Spiritual fathers and mothers in the land. There are 10,000 teachers – but not many fathers. While personally – I have always longed for a spiritual father – about the only thing I can do is – the buck stops here. I may have never had one – but I can sure be one.

Oddly enough, I did have a couple of spiritual mothers (two different seasons in my life) who really spent some quality time with me and imparted things to me that I could not have received any other way. I’m am very thankful for that.

I do very much advocate there is a huge difference in the spirit between men and women – and that the diversity is a necessary and wonderful thing. I’m am totally against trying to solve a social injustice by turning women into men and men into women – but that’s the path I see many taking (not saying you’re doing this Traveller – I don’t think that at all).

The problem lies in the great number of men who sincerely believe they are faithfully adhering to scriptures with regard to their position on women in ministry. I was one of those men. I saw it modeled and taught, and had no idea that there was any other way to read the scriptures. I had been duped into believing a lie, but thought I was clinging to the Truth in the midst of a warped culture.

I think men and women everywhere who have recognized the freedom they have now in Christ must pray for the Church and its leadership. Pray for those denominations that discriminate on a musunderstanding of the Scriptures. Pray for the institutes and their leaders like the CBMW. Pray for them, love them, forgive them, and release them to the HOly Spirit. Don’t react to their venom with venom. Lift them up.

I know people prayed for me. I know my heart has been changed. I know my understanding of God has greatly increased. But I wasn’t argued into it.

Early in my Christian experience, say, 25 years ago or so, our small charismatic church had the Jews for Jesus representative come in & do the whole Passover Seder tie-in presentation.

BTW: My family very good friends with the Miller’s that live down the street from us. We join them every year for Passover. He is a Catholic that converted to Judaism because his wife had the stronger religious conviction. I actually like the way they celebrate the ritual. It is amazing how much symbolism is nestled there…

Anyway, back to my story. The Jews for Jesus dude very polished with his presentation. And of course the spiel at the end had a very unsavory flavor not unlike the maror…

He explained as best he could how the goyim believers were in debt to the Jewish believers & that supporting their ministry the best way to rectify what had been so long neglected all those years. All with God’s blessing of course…

That was the last time I ever attended any such Jews for Jesus dog-and-pony-show…

Now, I am not a leader by any stretch of the imagination. Do not claim to be a mover or shaker in any denomination or religious institution. Am not all the enamored with any title or position. Look at those that wear the uniform or pastor or teacher as a peer that I am most certainly going to disagree with on some issues. I think my theological opinions & conclusions good enough for me. I don’t go about claiming they are the standard all others are to be measured by…

So, if it is women that are attempting to seek some theoretical equality within organizations that by definition are already flawed, then what is it you want from me?

I will not be jumping on the bandwagon of gender issues in the church if I am not that committed to such an institution to begin with. From my personal perspective (disclaimer intentional) it is not the biggest issue affecting the church today. Not that it is of no consequence, but I am not at all going to become a zealous iconoclast making it the most important one that needs to be corrected. No more so than the Jews for Jesus making their appeal to my pocketbook 25 years ago.

I do not think I am that unique in my perspective. Or maybe I am not one that such appeals should be directed to. But I do know that I will not be joining any cause or contributing to any organization that is seeking monetary support.

I am content with my perspectives at this time. Not that they are permanent. I do understand the theoretical issues as they have been presented. But I am not so worked up about it or impassioned as to make it a crusade. I don’t apologize for my perspectives. And yet I also feel I have not been given the tools to really deal with the issue on a practical scale either. I may have give some mental assent but I have no real ability to influence the situation as it has been presented…

I will accept the flak as it is thrown at me, but if you want me to somehow be convinced this is thee most critical issue facing The Church today & how I can personally impact the situation for the better, I will listen to the collective wisdom of those that wish to lay it out for this male to better comprehend.

It does appear that we may view this somewhat differently. I think what women are suggesting is that men actually be proactive to bring about change so that women can participate. As I read your comment, which may be an incorrect reading, it is suggesting the responsibility falls completely, or primarily, on women to take some action….speak up…..or find a different situation.

Should it not fall on men to correct a situation that was caused by men? Do we need the participation from women to correct this? Of course, as in all aspects of life.

I think it is going to be very difficult for women to overcome the millenia of prejudice against them without the active contribution of men to correct this situation.

I have to respectfully disagree with some of your points and I’ll tell you why:

Mal 3:16 At that time those who feared the LORD spoke to one another. The LORD took notice and listened. So a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who feared Yahweh and had high regard for His name.

This scripture is very interesting in that “speaking to one another” is equated with the “fear (or reverance) of the Lord”. So…. you have reverence for the Lord – by finding out what He’s put in others. The only way you can do that is talk.

I really think vision is a “shared thing” for people in a group. They should gather and talk about it – with the ladies (and even children) having an equal say in what the Lord is saying to them. If you never talk to one another – chances of you getting included in the vision of the group – is probably not real high. If you don’t talk – you’re really robbing the group of the piece the Lord has put in you. When you put the pieces together – you get a real good idea of what the Lord is saying to you as a group. The group itself are the ones who put the pieces together – not a male or a female.

Now I’m not really asking the ladies to answer me – as I’m not really in their groups at all – and answering me has very little relevance to anyone – but if they are a part of a group – or groups where they have no voice – then I would strongly advise they get out of that situation.

There is no more time to waste on waiting for the denomination to change – they aren’t going to. Sooner or later people have to own up to their own decision to be a part of an abusive situation. Get out from under the abuse – and get healed. God’s not saying – stay and change Babylon – He’s saying – get out !!

Grace, this whole power/influence balance issue is yet another reason why the paradigm of “cHesed glasses” I talk about at my place is so helpful. When we realize that we are in a binding covenant together with all members of the Body of Christ — and responsible to and for each other’s best interest being served — it helps me make the hard decisions.

Of course, there are those who will say that it is in the best interest of women for them to be “under”….bla bla bla….but for those who do NOT believe that, it helps me move forward in looking at each opportunity I have to encourage and support EVERYONE around me … men and women and children and the marginalized.

Love the look of your reduced blogging sister — praying for you and hoping your “snow retreat” was blessed!