Just a reminder, the thoughts, feelings, ideas, and opinions on this blog are simply a reflection of this moment in time in said blogger’s journey.
The church we left behind was the church we poured ourselves into. We gave completely of our time, money, energy, and heart. We frequently left our young children with sitters to attend meetings. We were available to people whenever they wanted to see us. All of our tithes plus substantial offerings went to the church. In spite of relational conflicts, our support of the “vision” of the church was 100 percent. In fact, if anything, we were over-invested.
When we left, we intentionally chose to not attend anywhere for 6 months. We were incredibly raw and isolated at that time. We then started attending this WC church which at the time was meeting in a gymnasium. We were in the process of grieving and detox. We had no relationships left from our CLB and were literally shunned by the people we had known so intimately.
The people at the WC church were friendly, and this was a safe and healthy place to be. Their vision of reaching the community with the gospel was such a healthy contrast from our CLB where the vision was to create an elite remnant. Being with and among this congregation was a healthy step in our growth. We were trying to start over.
After 2 years, the WC church completed their building. We were happy for them to have a building, and we did contribute to the building fund. Shortly after they moved into the new building, our CLB blew up and many of our “church family” were suddenly also attending the WC church.
While they were also hurt and angry about what happened at the CLB, most of them jumped right in at the new church. They took the 101, 201 classes, joined small groups, volunteered for children’s ministry, coffee shop duty, drama and music roles.
The past year and a half has been very healing for us with many of our relationships being reconciled. It has also stirred up things that I had put to rest and contributed to my confusion about where and how we fit.
Many of my closest friends are already “in leadership” at the WC church. Yesterday I got a phone call about inviting us to attend a “special reception” for couples who are considered “leaders.” (It was for the capital campaign, and I am fairly certain that considered leaders means making above minimum wage.)
In the past 6 months we have grown increasingly disillusioned. We are trying not to blame the church for our disillusionment. It is not their fault. I haven’t been there since Easter. My kids occasionally attend there.
I struggle with the idea that I will likely once again walk away from the church where my friends are. I don’t necessarily expect the same relational fallout as last time, but it is a painful unspoken narrative of always being the outsider.
Right now, what we need in our life are people that truly care about us in spite of the fact that we have nothing to offer. Maybe that’s unrealistic.
37 responses so far ↓
Fred // April 23, 2008 at 8:50 am
“Right now, what we need in our life are people that truly care about us in spite of the fact that we have nothing to offer. Maybe that’s unrealistic.”
Isn’t that what “church” is supposed to be? It seems to me that Jesus said something about inviting people to eat with us that can not return the favor.
Unfortunately we forget that.
Rose // April 23, 2008 at 9:05 am
Grace,
Thanks for your post. I appreciate it. It’s complicated huh? Maybe you would consider moving to Seattle
Dan // April 23, 2008 at 9:15 am
“painful unspoken narrative of always being the outsider”
Story of my life…
Jim // April 23, 2008 at 9:46 am
“Right now, what we need in our life are people that truly care about us in spite of the fact that we have nothing to offer. Maybe that’s unrealistic.”
I agree with Fred - that’s what we are called to be. But it also cuts both ways, i.e., many times I worry about not truly caring for people who have nothing to offer…Or at least that I THINK they have nothing to offer, when of course they do.
@Dan - me, too! :o)
Jeff // April 23, 2008 at 10:11 am
There is a dire need for followers of the way to live as an organic community committed to Father, Son, and Spirit and each other.
I too tire of corporate machinery and vision casting. The sad reality is that most Christians wouldn’t know how to live a Christ-centered life if the Sunday morning props were removed. I include myself in that to some degree.
I pray you can live confidently in the good grace of our Father in heaven.
Thanks for your honesty.
Peggy // April 23, 2008 at 10:20 am
Grace…I agree with Jim: “Or at least that I THINK they have nothing to offer, when of course they do.”
I think there needs to be a lot of work done recalibrating “worth.” I have been thinking about this a lot since my post on Time Banking, where their mantra is: “There are no throw away people.”
IMO we need to be more free in valuing who people are rather than what they have to offer. Perhaps what we have to offer each other, more often than not, is our brokenness. But that is a gift that is both difficult to give and difficult to receive.
I had a huge experience of this last night…not going to process it here because I’m still processing it internally (and, yes, I do occasionally process thing internally before sharing it with the entire blogosphere
)
There are more options that fit into many of the boxes out there with the label “Opportunities to Serve the Body of Christ”….
@Dan and Jim…me, too!
Tracy Simmons // April 23, 2008 at 10:53 am
Grace, you have so much to offer, as is evidenced every week here on this blog. So, I’m not buyin’ that line, sister!
I suspect what you’re really feeling is that what you have to offer is probably not welcomed at a traditional type church setting. That I understand only too well. It’s why I now am enjoying relational Christianity outside the walls where my pot stirring, fire-starting, questioning everything abilities are embraced and loved, not shunned.
I’ve had water thrown on me too many times inside the walls. For me, outside the walls, folks throw more wood on the fire, flaming it into higher flame, not dousing it with water to put it out because it’s “dangerous.”
I pray you will soon find those folks who see who you really are, what you really have to offer, and that they will become cheerleaders in your life for you to go for it in any way your heart leads.
Hugs from Vermont,
Tracy
ken // April 23, 2008 at 11:12 am
In the simplest of terms I see the Spirit moving God’s people from ‘doing church’ to ‘being church’. Simple concept - but not a simple process. It sounds like you’re in the process.
Breaking paradigms causes all kinds of reactionary feelings and activities. Just look at Jesus, that’s all He did for 3 1/2 years. It’s messy, but in the end it’s worth it.
jerry // April 23, 2008 at 11:29 am
ok Grace -
When we were teenagers - we called someone who had just broken up with their boy/girl friend a “rebound baby”. It was a very fragile, dangerous state that put a person in a completely vulnerable place. Me and all of my friends - male and female - experienced this. Usually the next relationship drove us deeper into immorality and total depravity than we had even imagined was possible in the previous relationship. We hurt each other very deeply. This is pretty much the normal state of affairs in the public school system these days - we were a little ahead of our time in the mid and late 70’s.
I really don’t see any difference with the church thing. If you jump from here to there after you’ve been hurt - you’re a “rebound baby”. You can dive in with both feet if you want - but it will plunge you deeper and deeper into something that’s probably not going to work out the way you think it should - some people get lucky (I don’t personally know any).
What I learned much later is - it wasn’t that we hated one another - in fact - just the opposite - we so much wanted it to work - all of us did. But it couldn’t work - it wasn’t right. The worldly system of love we had bought into was a lie. It was all based on ME.
It’s not the people in “the church system” that are bad - it’s the system itself. It chews people up and spits them out - it destroys them. We bought into a lie. These are awesome people - in a really lousy worldly system. This church system was borrowed from the Greeks and Roman government - it’s not the one Jesus set up. That “church system” is all based on ME.
God’s people can prosper some in Babylon - but that’s not their home.
——————————————————–
Heb 11:8-10 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.
By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.
For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
Matt 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother {Some manuscripts mother or wife} or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
Heb 13:12-14 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.
Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.
For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.
—————————————————–
It’s hard - even disgraceful being outside the camp, but there is a CITY - A BRIDE - A PLOT OF GROUND - A PLACE where there is REAL LOVE - not the love the places a value on your performance and dumps you for something better.
I have seen that city in my dreams - I am not going back. I can sit though a few Mega services and be patient with my own bride - but we are going to find that CITY.
Deb // April 23, 2008 at 11:31 am
Thanks for your post Grace…this can’t be an easy time. This is what came up for me when I read your post:
I googled before posting a comment here because in all honesty, I didn’t understand the term; this is what I learned….
A CHURCH CAPITAL CAMPAIGN
“Whether you are building a new church, social hall, religious education class rooms or additional school space, the principles outlined on this web page provide you with a guide to raising as much as possible, while remaining focused on the spiritual aspects of your church.
Capital campaigns are very different than “increased offertory” or weekly giving campaigns. Capital campaigns for churches are for specific, tangible needs and offer people a tangible vision for the future. Increasing a church’s offerings requires a long-term commitment to stewardship, something that is almost always done best with in-house professionals as opposed to consultants.”
Huh?
I’m confused just looking for a definition.
Grace, I may have missed your point, I’m not sure, but to me it’s almost like that feeling you get when a real cute guy starts being nice to you, and then you find out he really just wanted you to sleep with him…. Okay I know that’s a very base way to explain it (please, I don’t mean to offend) and I’m not sure that this is part of what’s happening for you now, but I know what it’s like to be looking for something authentic only to find that once again, someone wants something from you.
“…people that truly care about us in spite of the fact that we have nothing to offer”
I believe that is what we all need, all the time. That’s not unrealistic; it’s the way it should be. I don’t know about you, but I need every ounce of the grace of God I can get a hold of to keep myself from giving up on ‘church’/relationships altogether.
Tracy Simmons // April 23, 2008 at 11:36 am
Jerry, YES! YES! YES!
The “What Now” Syndrome : Under the Grace // April 23, 2008 at 11:42 am
[...] Grace’s latest post, Work in Progress, got me to thinking about the trouble with thinking outside the [...]
Deb // April 23, 2008 at 11:50 am
Jerry…. I’m with Tracy! YES !YES! YES!
Grace, you can go ahead and delete my post, lol!
Wayne Owens // April 23, 2008 at 11:53 am
Blogging to much but trying to avoid prep to talk to health care pros about grief. any way, I guess I miss most of this because I don’t approach anyone for what they can do for me other than the professionals I hire.
I and I believe most in the churches I serve have an openess and a missional perspective though it may be somewhat limited but we are working at it.
I suppose there are those churches you keep referring to and they really scare the hell out of me and make me appreciate where I am and where I have been.
Help me by keeping the posting going Grace because I learn so much about what not to do/be by reading this and a few other blogs.
grace and peace WaynO
Sarah // April 23, 2008 at 12:27 pm
“Right now, what we need in our life are people that truly care about us in spite of the fact that we have nothing to offer. ”
It’s such a challenging season - transition. It’s been difficult for me to navigate relationships with other believers who have wanted to ‘recruit’ my husband and I (whether for financial reasons, or for the utilization of gifts or talents) to ’sign up’ for their ministry or church plant or some other top-down vision. It feels exploitive sometimes, and generally narcissistic (only seeing people as resources for building your vision). But at the same time, I kind of love some of these people because they genuinely love God and they too are products of North American Christianity just like I have been. And maybe they still buy into some stuff that I don’t buy into anymore, but I still want to be in their lives. I just don’t want to be recruited or sign up for something I don’t think is a worthwhile eternal investment. It’s so difficult to navigate all of that without making people feel rejected, or without them feeling like you think they are doing the wrong thing (since you don’t want to do it with them). It’s not my heart to reject people, but I have redefined ‘church’ and ‘ministry’ (or, rather, God has convicted me, I have repented, and He has changed my mind regarding the definitions of those things) and I just can’t go back. It would be a compromise on my part. But how do I possibly communicate that without people feeling rejected? It’s a challenge…
traveller // April 23, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Many good points in the post and the comments.
Grace, this is a form of grieving. What you thought was the “answer” in terms of “church” turned out not to be at your CLB and at the WC clone, even if you did not consciously think the WC was the answer. It is still a part of the process and journey.
For those on the front edge of the transition it is always difficult because few are there with you and almost none are ahead to show the way.
The constant theme of Revelation is be an overcomer. I pray for you to have patience and perseverance to continue the journey.
Jeff McQ // April 23, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Grace,
Thanks for the honesty and vulnerability.
I am amazed at how many people I am coming across, in the blogosphere and elsewhere, who are in various places of transition. So am I, although it looks different than your journey.
I pray God’s grace hold you as you navigate these waters.
Mark R // April 23, 2008 at 6:20 pm
The title sums it up for me - work in progress - yes that is what we are. That is the way it will be until glory, journeying, discovering, taking wrong turns, making unwise moves, meeting new friends, new opportunities, as someone once said, the only mistake we make is the one we don’t learn anything from.
The school of being incarnational is all about discovery - a work in progress - praise God.
Thanks for your honesty, as the comments note, we are all sharing the same walk as you are. Peace.
inheritor of heaven // April 24, 2008 at 3:43 am
I have not been part of a mega-church, though in our denomination a church of over 1000 members (not all being attenders) is likely considered a mega-church. I have not been part of a house church though a number of small groups I have been part of have essentially functioned as such. In all instances there were “weeds among the wheat” and “burrs under the saddle”. Also, in every case there were those who needed something from me. Sometimes I was need was for kingdom purposes, sometimes for selfish reasons.
In the case of the small groups, often they would grow and have to be split due to space constrictions. Sometimes they dissolved due to the lethargy that seems to accompany dysfunction. Sometimes the Lord just called folks in different directions or to different ministry functions. Occasionally some folks left the group due to sin (they were not asked to leave, they just stopped coming and it was later revealed). All of those instances of group change were painful.
I don’t think that here on earth, we are going to find the city Jerry is talking about because here on earth, we are broken, sinful, hurting people who need to, and are called to, gather together.
jerry // April 24, 2008 at 4:57 am
I can tell you this - when the kingdom of God comes near a humanly established institution - sparks fly. Just look at Jesus’ example.
I think what Wolfgang Simson said is accurate: If you see a pile of rocks and a pair of feet sticking out - grab a hold of those feet and pull that person out - you probably have a hold of an apostle. (Religous institutions stone apostles - and God is waking these people up right now)
(Some people look at Eph 4:11 - as everyone on the face of the earth fits into one of these five categories (not two) - and should function in it - after maturing from infancy - to sonship - to fatherhood/motherhood) In other words, every person is either an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, or teacher when they grow up.
God gave some to be.. (20%), some to be ..(20%), some to be.. (20%), some to be ..(20%), some to be (20%) …… Total (100%) (I’m not trying validate the distribution percents- just the totals)
Now if that were true - what would that do to the playing field?
grace // April 24, 2008 at 8:25 am
Rose,
You know what they say, I am sure I would bring my problems with me. However, I would love to visit and meet my west coast friends someday.
Fred and Jim,
To be honest, I have no trust in organizationally generated relationships.
dan, jim, and peggy,
My desire to simply be a normal part of the herd seems continually frustrated with my inherent inability to simply be a normal part of the herd.
peggy and tracy,
This probably isn’t the place to be who we are. It has served us for a season as a place to rest. We are still tired and still broken. We aren’t going to become “awesomely bold leaders” or “wonderful worker bees” in this congregation. It is likely we will limp off and continue our relationships with other believers who are pursuing insignificant life in the kingdom.
jeff, ken, jerry, traveller, jeff, mark, and inheritor,
This church met a need in our lives for a season. We always knew that it probably wasn’t permanent, which is why we didn’t fully engage.
I struggle with letting go, with being different, and with moving a step away from my friends. There are things that I want to hang onto, that old religious security blanket.
I am not looking for the perfect or ideal group or gathering. In fact, I am sure we will end up a part of something much less polished than what I find at this church.
You guys are right that it is more transition and a further step in the process. Sometimes I wish I could just do this more assuredly. Thanks for your encouragement and support.
deb,
I’m not going to delete your comment! The capital campaign has simply highlighted the lack of relationship that exists. The reality is that “the cute guy” doesn’t even want to know why I said no.
wayne,
The bottom line is whether there are real relationships or if the church is simply a business organization providing religious services.
sarah,
I really appreciated your comment. I see both sides of this also. You really explained well the tension in the different approaches to church and ministry.
Jeff Greathouse // April 24, 2008 at 10:04 am
*praying*
Thanks for your honesty and your willingness to share. Once again, as a staff person on at a church, hearing voices as yours make an impact.
Thanks.
Fred // April 24, 2008 at 10:07 am
Grace, I understand about you not wanting “organizationally generated relationships” at this time. I was actually talking about relationships that are real and not something that is forced. That is “church”.
Tara // April 24, 2008 at 11:06 am
GOOD STUFF:
I struggle with letting go, with being different, and with moving a step away from my friends. There are things that I want to hang onto, that old religious security blanket.
“organizationally generated relationships”
I struggle with the idea that I will likely once again walk away from the church where my friends are. I don’t necessarily expect the same relational fallout as last time, but it is a painful unspoken narrative of always being the outsider.
DITTO!!
fr'nklin // April 24, 2008 at 5:30 pm
friend…i feel for you guys and know exactly how you feel. I have struggled all my life with the “outsider” label. It feels like I was born a “black sheep”…of sorts. Of course, its odd, but I think when I am at the center and in the midst of acceptance, I intuitively know I am in the wrong place. I must get out…and find the margins…and be alone with friends who are alone on the margins with me.
Glenn // April 24, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Grace ~
“but it is a painful unspoken narrative of always being the outsider.
Right now, what we need in our life are people that truly care about us in spite of the fact that we have nothing to offer. Maybe that’s unrealistic.”
Your honesty is refreshing and revealing. It reveals how the church became a system instead of a loving community displaying the beauty if the kingdom. The means of accomplishing God’s mission became the end.
I know that disenfranchised outsider feeling… and it sucks. I now have little confidence in the system, but I don’t feel the need to break back into the cage. Yet, we are made for relationship and purpose.
That has got me involved in chasing something more real, more raw, more normal. When I can find rest even in the search (and it is more frequent now) I know things are OK.
I don’t think that God is too impressed with our church system, but I think he is very near to the outsider.
David // April 24, 2008 at 8:24 pm
“God gave some to be.. (20%), some to be ..(20%), some to be.. (20%), some to be ..(20%), some to be (20%) …… Total (100%)” Just when I though I had it all figured out Jerry comes around with something new (to me). Its a new paradigm, and it has possibilities, but its distracting me from solving Grace’s problems which seem to be virtually identical to mine. I would feel better if I were surrounded by people who thought the same thoughts. Its lonely in my corner of the world too. I had one significant blessing this week, my beloved agreed to join me on this journey into the unknown. I call it the unknown, but Jesus is out there, somewhere, and he’s beckoning.
David // April 24, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Grace, here’s a song for you from Casting Crowns:
Oh,what I would do to have
the kind of faith it takes
To climb out of this boat I’m in
Onto the crashing waves
To step out of my comfort zone
Into the realm of the unknown
Where Jesus is,
And he’s holding out his hand
The rest of it is pretty good too.
Cheers
grace // April 24, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Thanks Jeff.
Fred,
I didn’t explain myself very well. What I want are relationships that aren’t dependent on participating in programs. I know that spending time together is part of building relationships, but I would rather do that outside of structured programs.
Tara,
I hope things work out for you.
fr’nklin,
I seem to go through stages of confidence and peace followed by the occasional meltdown until I find my balance again. Did you get my email?
glenn,
Thanks for your encouragement. This isn’t necesarily a straight-forward journey. I feel like I should be beyond getting discouraged, but it seems to be an unavoidable part of moving forward.
david,
Sometimes I am okay with this realm of the unknown. It seems I go from walking through fog into occasional moments of clarity. Of course walking through the fog is harder. Blessings to you and your wife.
jerry // April 25, 2008 at 4:28 am
David - Where are you at? Anywhere close to Indianapolis? Yes-No would suffice if you don’t want to reveal your location. (last person I asked this to - I never saw him blog again …. I think he was afraid I’d steal his identity or I was jerry the ripper or something)
Forming relationships outside of the institution is difficult - because that’s where believers are, and I’m really gun shy about “stealing some pastor’s sheep”. (I’m glad I’m not counted in that number anymore). So I don’t see the institutional church as a place to even meet people. I know the Apostle Paul and the gang went into syagogues - and they were very brave -I’m not quite ready to get stoned.
We were kind of like Grace at our CLB - we drew lines in the sand and said - you can’t follow us out of here. We were accused of enough without the “church split” thing hanging over our heads… but we had relationships that did make it thru that ordeal (but the lines in the sand are still there).
The Lord is faithful to lead people into relationships with radical believers like themselves. A couple of months after our departure from CLB - we met a couple - almost exact same story - he was a worship leader - etc, etc. Church situation - almost identical story. He’d been reading Gene Edwards books for a while - we could talk freely about anything. My wife hit it off with her - like God was just saying - hey - I know what you need - I’m here.
It’s real easy to think you’re the only one that hasn’t bowed the knee to Baal - and reality is there’s a whole bunch of quality people out there. I mean just look at the quality of people contributing on this blog. So the “I’m the only one thing” hopefully won’t hold you down too long.
Grace - our whole family went to Sequoia National Park on a spring outing (its a long story) - the fog was so bad we couldn’t see the center line on the road. Right about the time when we were totally freaked out and about ready to turn around (if we could even find a way to do that) - we broke thru the cloud on the side of that mountain. There wasn’t a cloud in the sky above a certain elevation. It was about 60 degrees - there was about 5 feet of snow there - and there weren’t any more than 20 people in the park that day. For our family a long walk in the woods is a special thing - and that day we had Sequoia National Park pretty much to ourselves. We felt like we saw it for real.
Fred // April 25, 2008 at 7:18 am
fr’nklin, you ought to get in touch with your friends once in a while
fr'nklin // April 25, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Fred…lol…I hear ya. We’re still ballin’. Maybe another round at Starbucks soon!
David // April 25, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Jerry, I’m not even in the same country, but here’s a hint: I’m north of Sequoia and south of Robbymac.
Jerry // April 26, 2008 at 2:49 am
David - guess I was really led of the Spirit when asking
Robert // April 26, 2008 at 9:04 am
Hi grace- I found you from tracy. I am a leader and on council in my church but empathize sooooooo much with what you share here. I am in charge of sunday school and seek to offer classes or oppoetunities to develop relationships, is a tough thing though, the system seems to keep people locked into a certain way of keeping their comfort zones in place. Is it weird to actually be a leader yet feel often like an outsider at the same time??? great stuff here grace very glad i came across you
grace // April 27, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Hi Robert, nice to meet you.
gilz // April 28, 2008 at 1:29 am
somewhere somehow, i know i think it’s ok to take time out
can someone tell me how my current church doesn’t get this?
this post caught me way below the belt
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