If the only way I can minister effectively is by getting paid to do it 40+ hours a week and I successfully train my disciples to imitate me in my pattern of ministry, who will support us all financially? Secular pagans?

yep, that connects the dots quite well for me, too.

I appreciate the thoughts about Brother Lawrence, but he doesn’t count in my mind as an example of someone who honors God in all realms of their life, including work….he was a monk, a professional Christian (if you will), and though he was assigned monastery duties in the kitchen, like peeling potatoes, and though he sought to discover God in all of his chores, the dude was, after all, a full-time monk living a cloistered existence in a religious community.

“I agree that there is no sacred/secular divide. But I am trying to see where we spiritualize or justify behaviors that may be nothing more than selfish ambition.”

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe you are primarily referring here to those whose selfish ambition is in the “secular” world of work.

However, I would say that this can apply to those in “ministry” as well. It may or may not have to do with money, but it can still be selfish ambition that is spiritualized. And, I do not mean just those who are in the “ministry” as a paying job. Many in the “church” use it to satisfy their selfish ambition while claiming it is something spiritual.

This seems to be the fallacy of Dan’s argument: That somehow those who are in “ministry” instead of the secular world are somehow exempt from selfish ambition.

holy as a day is spent

holy is the dish and drain
the soap and sink, and the cup and plate
and the warm wool socks, and the cold white tile
showerheads and good dry towels
and frying eggs sound like psalms
with bits of salt measured in my palm
it’s all a part of a sacrament
as holy as a day is spent

holy is the busy street
and cars that boom with passion’s beat
and the check out girl, counting change
and the hands that shook my hands today
and hymns of geese fly overhead
and spread their wings like their parents did
[ Lyrics found at http://www.mp3lyrics.org/AY4 ]
blessed be the dog, that runs in her sleep
to chase some wild and elusive thing

holy is the familiar room
and quiet moments in the afternoon
and folding sheets like folding hands
to pray as only laundry can
i’m letting go of all my fear
like autumn leaves made of earth and air
for the summer came and the summer went
as holy as a day is spent

holy is the place i stand
to give whatever small good i can
and the empty page, and the open book
redemption everywhere i look
unknowingly we slow our pace
in the shade of unexpected grace
and with grateful smiles and sad lament
as holy as a day is spent

and morning light sings “providence”
as holy as a day is spent

That really struck me too as I read through these posts and comments. I don’t know that any of us can really see how culturally polluted our hearts are and just how great that influence is upon our lives unless we have these types of discussions that you are bringing about.

I was reading Brant’s blog this morning (http://tinyurl.com/26jr5w) and was struck by how much it challenges my tiny Western mindset of the way I live my life. I immediately jumped in my head to Jesus’ words to Peter (John, chapter 21) after Peter sees John following them and says to the Lord, “What about him?” Jesus responds: “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” It just brought home to me once again that we each may have radically different paths to follow in the spirit of “ministry,” and we cannot compare ourselves to one another… …but I think we can use each other’s lives as a reason to occasionally take a closer look at our heart’s true condition when it comes to following Jesus.

I think that is why I find these types of conversations so useful. They serve as one more way for me to examine my heart from time to time to see if I really am following Jesus or just my culture’s view of what following Jesus really means.

Thanks for the great food for thought and challenge to my heart once again!

Elle

There are many mundane tasks that can be seen as acts of service. But what about those tasks that seem to be nothing more than being a cog in the wheel of economy and industry?

What if your vocation has no apparent significance beyond economics – maybe you are just polishing widgets to get a paycheck.

But then nothing is done in a vacuum. For example, even in polishing widgets, there are relationships – the employer or clients you happen to be polishing for, other people who may be polishing widgets alongside you, and your internal relationship with God that continues in the midst of widget polishing.

I agree that there is no sacred/secular divide. But I am trying to see where we spiritualize or justify behaviors that may be nothing more than selfish ambition.

Obviously it is a heart issue. While one person may be serving God in their mundane activity, another person may not be.

I still have a few questions related to Dan’s original thoughts and his comment in the other post regarding ministry and how this discussion of mundane activity and vocation relates to ministry.

“Is secular work redemptive?”

Of course , if we are followers of Christ, the way we clean a toilet should reflect his love for us. Sometimes I believe that it isn’t the “what” but the “how” and “with what attitude” that we do the mundane things with.
——————————-
“Are we fooling ourselves if we believe there is anything sacred about our mundane tasks?”
See the comment of inheriterofheaven.
——————————–
“Are we incarnating the life of Jesus when we are not in the actual act of loving or serving?”

I think it is a good question and I think the answer is ,we should be. But ,I also think that loving and serving are things we should strive to always be doing. I believe that when we are truly like him , everything we do will be with a loving servants heart.
===================

Tts 2:9 “[Exhort] servants to be obedient unto their own masters, [and] to please [them] well in all [things]; not answering again;
Tts 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.”
Peace be with you all.

“You are missing the point. And the point is that Jesus Christ is not up there
waiting for you to do something for him. He is here in you. He is sharing his burden
for his sheep (your family) and their livelihood with you. And you wake up in it,
live in it all day, and you really love it. It makes you sing. But you do not see it for
what it actually is. It is not your burden and delight, but his, and there is no more
holy thing in all the world than cooking a meal for your family. For that is nothing
short of God the Father Himself, through His Son and in the Spirit, sharing His royal
feast with His loved ones. It is a divine event!