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	<title>Comments on: Review: Everything Must Change</title>
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	<description>...on earth as it is in heaven</description>
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		<title>By: shaun</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4260</link>
		<dc:creator>shaun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 22:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4260</guid>
		<description>Grace &amp; Commenters,
          I also have not read this book , I have been wanting to read it but have limited time and resources. 
 Any way, I find my self in a sort of middle of the road spot when it comes to this &quot;emerging view&quot; . 
  It seems to me that if gone unchecked, this movement will become exactly the same type of system that it speaks out against. It&#039;s human nature that causes us to become separatist ,elitist  or any of the other ist&#039;s  you would insert here . Like water we will take the path of least resistance, and in doing so will begin to flounder on the things that were our passion. 
       I think Mclaren has some really great points, but I already see a movement into being highly organized within this cause that is supposed to be all- inclusive, there is already a sort of an  us vs. them mentality. 
        I am actually apprehensive of buying this book for that reason. I don&#039;t feel like I should participate in anything that will become another type of marketing of the Gospel of God. 
                       I hope that much of this movement will stay true to it&#039;s calling . But, alas people are still involved. 
                   Peace</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grace &amp; Commenters,<br />
          I also have not read this book , I have been wanting to read it but have limited time and resources.<br />
 Any way, I find my self in a sort of middle of the road spot when it comes to this &#8220;emerging view&#8221; .<br />
  It seems to me that if gone unchecked, this movement will become exactly the same type of system that it speaks out against. It&#8217;s human nature that causes us to become separatist ,elitist  or any of the other ist&#8217;s  you would insert here . Like water we will take the path of least resistance, and in doing so will begin to flounder on the things that were our passion.<br />
       I think Mclaren has some really great points, but I already see a movement into being highly organized within this cause that is supposed to be all- inclusive, there is already a sort of an  us vs. them mentality.<br />
        I am actually apprehensive of buying this book for that reason. I don&#8217;t feel like I should participate in anything that will become another type of marketing of the Gospel of God.<br />
                       I hope that much of this movement will stay true to it&#8217;s calling . But, alas people are still involved.<br />
                   Peace</p>
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		<title>By: grace</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4229</link>
		<dc:creator>grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4229</guid>
		<description>Patrick,
Exactly!  Loved your last paragraph.  It describes well the uneasiness I felt in Brian&#039;s approach to the issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick,<br />
Exactly!  Loved your last paragraph.  It describes well the uneasiness I felt in Brian&#8217;s approach to the issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4228</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:06:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4228</guid>
		<description>&quot;Perhaps he avoided the more spiritual realities of the kingdom in order to keep the focus on addressing the practical realities of suffering and injustice rather than to allow them to continue to be dismissed by confining the gospel solely to the spiritual realm. However, the kind of transformation that Brian proposes must be connected to individual spiritual transformation and relationship with Jesus in order for the outflowing expression of generosity and justice to be a movement empowered by the life and power of God.&quot;

This is so interesting because it sounds exactly like what Liberation theology has tried to do.  The values of liberation and equality and justice our huge, but Latin America shows that liberation theologies flirtation with marxism has led to failures of many of these goals.   

At the same time it is Pentecostalism that has taken off among the masses.  Liberation theology is, oddly enough, elitist in a way, for scholars and those who want to institute their own managed changes, under a new power structure.  

As the spiritual emphasis takes a backseat to the political and social, everything becomes gutted of real power and change.  It is through the Holy Spirit that we participate in the Kingdom of God and all the signs of liberation that come from it.  Otherwise we replace one hierarchy with another, and once again the poor are left out--even if they are once again used as a tool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Perhaps he avoided the more spiritual realities of the kingdom in order to keep the focus on addressing the practical realities of suffering and injustice rather than to allow them to continue to be dismissed by confining the gospel solely to the spiritual realm. However, the kind of transformation that Brian proposes must be connected to individual spiritual transformation and relationship with Jesus in order for the outflowing expression of generosity and justice to be a movement empowered by the life and power of God.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is so interesting because it sounds exactly like what Liberation theology has tried to do.  The values of liberation and equality and justice our huge, but Latin America shows that liberation theologies flirtation with marxism has led to failures of many of these goals.   </p>
<p>At the same time it is Pentecostalism that has taken off among the masses.  Liberation theology is, oddly enough, elitist in a way, for scholars and those who want to institute their own managed changes, under a new power structure.  </p>
<p>As the spiritual emphasis takes a backseat to the political and social, everything becomes gutted of real power and change.  It is through the Holy Spirit that we participate in the Kingdom of God and all the signs of liberation that come from it.  Otherwise we replace one hierarchy with another, and once again the poor are left out&#8211;even if they are once again used as a tool.</p>
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		<title>By: grace</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4223</link>
		<dc:creator>grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4223</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;cindy&lt;/b&gt;,
Considering I had reservations about the book, I attempted to focus on the parts I liked in reviewing it.

&lt;b&gt;pistolpete&lt;/b&gt;,
It sounds like you are already on the right track.  As the leader of an existing congregation, you live in the tension of maintaining what you have while also having the opportunity to use your resources (you, your building, the talents of your members) for purposes beyond yourselves.  

Getting rid of your resources wouldn&#039;t likely be the best stewardship of what is available to you.  It is really more about focus and moving forward faithfully in whatever position you find yourself.

While I support expressions of church outside of the institution, I also believe strongly in the ability of existing congregations to implement change as the spirit leads.  In fact, I believe that there is incredible potential and opportunity within traditional churches that should be encouraged, not dismissed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>cindy</b>,<br />
Considering I had reservations about the book, I attempted to focus on the parts I liked in reviewing it.</p>
<p><b>pistolpete</b>,<br />
It sounds like you are already on the right track.  As the leader of an existing congregation, you live in the tension of maintaining what you have while also having the opportunity to use your resources (you, your building, the talents of your members) for purposes beyond yourselves.  </p>
<p>Getting rid of your resources wouldn&#8217;t likely be the best stewardship of what is available to you.  It is really more about focus and moving forward faithfully in whatever position you find yourself.</p>
<p>While I support expressions of church outside of the institution, I also believe strongly in the ability of existing congregations to implement change as the spirit leads.  In fact, I believe that there is incredible potential and opportunity within traditional churches that should be encouraged, not dismissed.</p>
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		<title>By: pistolpete</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4221</link>
		<dc:creator>pistolpete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 09:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4221</guid>
		<description>McLaren writes - “If there is a force in the world powerful and good enough to overcome the grinding, destructive momentum of the suicide machine, it is to be found, not in organized religion seeking institutional self-preservation, but in religion organizing for the common good.”

Serving an &quot;institutional church&quot;, there is no doubt that self-prservation can get in the way of organizing for the common good.  For instance, looking at the budget, about 50% pays for staff (like me), and around 25% (or more) pays for our property, which leaves just 25% (or less) for other ministry and mission expenses.

So what do we do?  

1)  Cut staff (including me)?
2)  Sell off property?

Such radical approaches are rarely even placed on the table.  What we can (and do) do is such things as allow community groups to share our property and see that our staff is actively building community both within and beyond our current membership.

We may not go far enough, but at least we&#039;re moving forward.  If we don&#039;t move forward, we&#039;re bound to implode or, worse, drain vital community resources keeping the church on life support.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>McLaren writes &#8211; “If there is a force in the world powerful and good enough to overcome the grinding, destructive momentum of the suicide machine, it is to be found, not in organized religion seeking institutional self-preservation, but in religion organizing for the common good.”</p>
<p>Serving an &#8220;institutional church&#8221;, there is no doubt that self-prservation can get in the way of organizing for the common good.  For instance, looking at the budget, about 50% pays for staff (like me), and around 25% (or more) pays for our property, which leaves just 25% (or less) for other ministry and mission expenses.</p>
<p>So what do we do?  </p>
<p>1)  Cut staff (including me)?<br />
2)  Sell off property?</p>
<p>Such radical approaches are rarely even placed on the table.  What we can (and do) do is such things as allow community groups to share our property and see that our staff is actively building community both within and beyond our current membership.</p>
<p>We may not go far enough, but at least we&#8217;re moving forward.  If we don&#8217;t move forward, we&#8217;re bound to implode or, worse, drain vital community resources keeping the church on life support.</p>
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		<title>By: cindy</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4217</link>
		<dc:creator>cindy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 03:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4217</guid>
		<description>thanks for this review, Grace. I haven&#039;t read the book yet, but you help me know what to expect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks for this review, Grace. I haven&#8217;t read the book yet, but you help me know what to expect.</p>
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		<title>By: grace</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4214</link>
		<dc:creator>grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 00:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4214</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;traveller&lt;/b&gt;,
Rick McKinley&#039;s book, &quot;This Beautiful Mess&quot; presented practical ways of participating in the kingdom dimension in a way that was encouraging and inspiring.

Maybe &lt;b&gt;RPV&lt;/b&gt;.

&lt;b&gt;Andrew&lt;/b&gt;,
The missional aspect of the emerging conversation has made this message more familiar to many.  However, I wouldn&#039;t say that it is widely understood by the average American christian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>traveller</b>,<br />
Rick McKinley&#8217;s book, &#8220;This Beautiful Mess&#8221; presented practical ways of participating in the kingdom dimension in a way that was encouraging and inspiring.</p>
<p>Maybe <b>RPV</b>.</p>
<p><b>Andrew</b>,<br />
The missional aspect of the emerging conversation has made this message more familiar to many.  However, I wouldn&#8217;t say that it is widely understood by the average American christian.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4207</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4207</guid>
		<description>Grace, that&#039;s a good review.  I posted a review of the same book on my blog last week, but missed out on summarising the book  - which I think you have done rather well.  (Would that McLaren were so succinct!)

I guess what bothered me most was the black-and-white model of the world behind his narrative: either you buy the &quot;conventional narrative&quot; or you buy his &quot;emerging narrative&quot;.  But the world isn&#039;t like that: most Christians I encounter would certainly, implicitly, agree with many of his messages.  They may be struggling to put them into practice, but that&#039;s a different matter entirely - he&#039;s not exactly strong on suggestions in that department in any case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grace, that&#8217;s a good review.  I posted a review of the same book on my blog last week, but missed out on summarising the book  &#8211; which I think you have done rather well.  (Would that McLaren were so succinct!)</p>
<p>I guess what bothered me most was the black-and-white model of the world behind his narrative: either you buy the &#8220;conventional narrative&#8221; or you buy his &#8220;emerging narrative&#8221;.  But the world isn&#8217;t like that: most Christians I encounter would certainly, implicitly, agree with many of his messages.  They may be struggling to put them into practice, but that&#8217;s a different matter entirely &#8211; he&#8217;s not exactly strong on suggestions in that department in any case.</p>
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		<title>By: RPV</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4204</link>
		<dc:creator>RPV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:57:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4204</guid>
		<description>I submit that this is a book that would be loved by one Politician. Ron Paul. Check this out:

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/war-and-foreign-policy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I submit that this is a book that would be loved by one Politician. Ron Paul. Check this out:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/war-and-foreign-policy" rel="nofollow">http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/war-and-foreign-policy</a></p>
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		<title>By: traveller</title>
		<link>http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4202</link>
		<dc:creator>traveller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:32:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/01/06/review-everything-must-change/#comment-4202</guid>
		<description>Grace, first I need to acknowledge I have not read the book, only a number of reviews such as yours.  Overall, my reaction is quite similar to yours.

The issues raised by MacLaren in this book have been of concern in my personal life for a number of years now.  My family is looking at how we can better be a part of Kingdom justice.  However, like you, I do not believe this is a political issue and would have the same concern as you about a Religious Right equivalent.  

I would really like to read a book that wholistically addressed the justice, material, spiritual issues that we face.  There is no doubt that evangelicals need to be as concerned with justice as with so-called &quot;salvation&quot; issues.  

One thing that gives me great encouragement is the fact that the young university students I am around who are followers of Jesus seem to naturally gravitate this way.  Many times they are an example to me of changes I need to make in my life.  

Thanks for the review.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grace, first I need to acknowledge I have not read the book, only a number of reviews such as yours.  Overall, my reaction is quite similar to yours.</p>
<p>The issues raised by MacLaren in this book have been of concern in my personal life for a number of years now.  My family is looking at how we can better be a part of Kingdom justice.  However, like you, I do not believe this is a political issue and would have the same concern as you about a Religious Right equivalent.  </p>
<p>I would really like to read a book that wholistically addressed the justice, material, spiritual issues that we face.  There is no doubt that evangelicals need to be as concerned with justice as with so-called &#8220;salvation&#8221; issues.  </p>
<p>One thing that gives me great encouragement is the fact that the young university students I am around who are followers of Jesus seem to naturally gravitate this way.  Many times they are an example to me of changes I need to make in my life.  </p>
<p>Thanks for the review&#8230;..</p>
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